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In fact, controversies are emerging about an important but less understood aspect of learning to read: phonemic awareness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s the technical name for showing children how to break down words into their component letter sounds and then fuse the sounds together. In a phonemic awareness lesson, a teacher might ask how many sounds are in the word cat. The answer is three: “k,” “a,” and “t.” Then the class blends the sounds back into the familiar sounding word: from “kuh-aah-tuh” to “kat.” The 26 letters of the English alphabet produce \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.readingrockets.org/sites/default/files/migrated/the-44-phonemes-of-english.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">44 phonemes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, which include unique sounds made from combinations of letters, such as “ch” and “oo.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many schools have purchased scripted oral phonemic awareness lessons that do not include the visual display of letters. The oral lessons are popular because they are easy to teach and fun for students. And that’s the source of the current debate. Should kids in kindergarten or first grade be spending so much time on sounds without understanding how those sounds correspond to letters? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/AN2XIWFWJ3YZDJ3SIFPZ/full?target=10.1080/10888438.2024.2309386\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">new meta-analysis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> confirms that the answer is no. In January 2024, five researchers from Texas A&M University published their findings online in the journal Scientific Studies of Reading. They found that struggling readers, ages 4 to 6, no longer benefited after 10.2 hours of auditory instruction in small group or tutoring sessions, but continued to make progress if visual displays of the letters were combined with the sounds. That means that instead of just asking students to repeat sounds, a teacher might hold up cards with the letters C, A and T printed on them as students isolate and blend the sounds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meta-analyses sweep up all the best research on a topic and use statistics to tell us where the preponderance of the evidence lies. This newest 2024 synthesis follows three previous meta-analyses on phonemic awareness in the past 25 years. While there are sometimes shortcomings in the underlying studies, the conclusions from all the phonemic meta-analyses appear to be pointing in the same direction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3050981118&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“If you teach phonemic awareness, students will learn phonemic awareness,” which isn’t the goal, said \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://understandingreading.home.blog/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tiffany Peltier\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a learning scientist who consults on literacy training for teachers at NWEA, an assessment company. “If you teach blending and segmenting using letters, students are learning to read and spell.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Phonemic awareness has a complicated history. In the 1970s, researchers discovered that good readers also had a good \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.jstor.org/stable/23769540\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">sense of the sounds that constitute words\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. This sound awareness helps students map the written alphabet to the sounds, an important step in learning to read and write. Researchers proved that these auditory skills could be taught and early studies showed that they could be taught as a \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.jstor.org/stable/748042\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">purely oral exercise without letters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But science evolved. In 2000, the National Reading Panel outlined the five pillars of evidence-based reading instruction: phonemic awareness, phonics, fluency, vocabulary and comprehension. This has come to be known as the science of reading. By then, more studies on phonemic awareness had been conducted and oral lessons alone were not as successful. The reading panel’s meta-analysis of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nichd.nih.gov/sites/default/files/publications/pubs/nrp/Documents/report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">52 studies\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> showed that phonemic awareness instruction was almost twice as effective when letters were presented along with the sounds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many schools ignored the reading panel’s recommendations and chose different approaches that didn’t systematically teach phonics or phonemic awareness. But as the science of reading grew in popularity in the past decade, phonemic awareness lessons also exploded. Teacher training programs in the science of reading emphasized the \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">importance of phonemic awareness\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://heggerty.org/curriculum/?utm_term=heggerty&utm_campaign=(D)+Branded+-+Search+(CORE)&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=8080130874&hsa_cam=10845962543&hsa_grp=105585801103&hsa_ad=473028550698&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=kwd-315916039120&hsa_kw=heggerty&hsa_mt=e&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA_tuuBhAUEiwAvxkgTrb7QXk6Q-sfzjdjbXZ0Slz4rS0CvAY10pE_vHsD2ggQe_OxB4Z-gxoCtAUQAvD_BwE\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Companies sold phonemic programs to schools\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and told teachers to teach it every day. Many of these lessons were auditory, including chants and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDSGFUhCxjI\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">songs without letters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Researchers worried that educators were overemphasizing auditory training. A 2021 article, “\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/ajxbv\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They Say You Can Do Phonemic Awareness Instruction ‘In the Dark’, But Should You?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">” by nine prominent reading researchers criticized how phonemic awareness was being taught in schools. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twenty years after the reading panel’s report, a \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://pubs.asha.org/doi/10.1044/2022_LSHSS-21-00160\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">second meta-analysis came out in 2022\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> with even fresher studies but arrived at the same conclusion. Researchers from Baylor University analyzed over 130 studies and found twice the benefits for phonemic awareness when it was taught with letters. A \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.triplesr.org/sites/default/files/uploads/draft_program_6-18-2022.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">third meta-analysis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was presented at a poster session of the 2022 annual meeting of the Society for the Scientific Study of Reading. It also found that instruction was more effective when sounds and letters were combined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the surface, adding letters to sounds might seem identical to teaching phonics. But some reading experts say phonemic awareness with letters still emphasizes the auditory skills of segmenting words into sounds and blending the sounds together. The visual display of the letter is almost like a subliminal teaching of phonics without explicitly saying, “This alphabetic symbol ‘a’ makes the sound ‘ah’.” Others explain that there isn’t a bright line between phonemic awareness and phonics and they can be taught in tandem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The authors of the latest 2024 meta-analysis had hoped to give teachers more guidance on how much classroom time to invest on phonemic awareness. But unfortunately, the classroom studies they found didn’t keep track of the minutes. The researchers were left with only 16 high-quality studies, all of which were interventions with struggling students. These were small group or individual tutoring sessions on top of whatever phonemic awareness lessons children may also have been receiving in their regular classrooms, which was not documented. So it’s impossible to say from this meta-analysis exactly how much sound training students need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The lead author of the 2024 meta-analysis, Florina Erbeli, an education psychologist at Texas A&M, said that the 10.2 hours number in her paper isn’t a “magic number.” It’s just an average of the results of the 16 studies that met her criteria for being included in the meta-analysis. The right amount of phonemic awareness might be more or less, depending on the child. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Erbeli said the bigger point for teachers to understand is that there are diminishing returns to auditory-only instruction and that students learn much more when auditory skills are combined with visible letters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I corresponded with Heggerty, the market leader in phonemic awareness lessons, which says its programs are in 70% of U.S. school districts. The company acknowledged that the science of reading has evolved, and that’s why it revised its phonemic awareness program in 2022 to incorporate letters and introduced a new program in 2023 to pair it with phonics. The company says it is working with outside researchers to keep improving the instructional materials it sells to schools. Because many schools cannot afford to buy a new instructional program, Heggerty says it also explains how teachers can modify older auditory lessons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The company still recommends that teachers spend eight to 12 minutes a day on phonemic awareness through the end of first grade. This recommendation contrasts with the advice of many reading researchers who say the average kid doesn’t need this much. Many researchers say that phonemic awareness continues to develop automatically as the child’s reading skills improve without advanced auditory training. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NWEA literacy consultant Peltier, whom I quoted earlier, suggests that phonemic awareness can be tapered off by the fall of first grade. More phonemic awareness isn’t necessarily harmful, but there’s only so much instructional time in the day. She thinks that precious minutes currently devoted to oral phonemic awareness could be better spent on phonics, building vocabulary and content knowledge through reading books aloud, classroom discussions and writing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another developer of a \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.equippedforreadingsuccess.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">phonemic awareness program\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> aimed at older, struggling readers is David Kilpatrick, professor emeritus at the State University of New York at Cortland. He told me that five minutes a day might be enough for the average student in a classroom, but some struggling students need a lot more. Kilpatrick disagrees with the conclusions of the meta-analyses because they lump different types of students together. He says severely dyslexic students need more auditory training. He explained that extra time is needed for advanced auditory work that helps these students build long-term memories, he said, and the meta-analyses didn’t measure that outcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another reading expert, Susan Brady, professor emerita at the University of Rhode Island, concurs that some of the more advanced manipulations can help some students. Moving a sound in and out of a word can heighten awareness of a consonant cluster, such as taking the “l” out of the word “plant” to get “pant,” and then inserting it back in again.* But she says this kind of sound substitution should only be done with visible letters. Doing all the sound manipulations in your head is too taxing for young children, she said.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brady’s concern is the misunderstanding that teachers need to teach all the phonemes before moving on to phonics. It’s not a precursor or a prerequisite to reading and writing, she says. Instead, sound training should be taught at the same time as new groups of letters are introduced. “The letters reinforce the phoneme awareness and the phoneme awareness reinforces the letters,” said Brady, speaking at a 2022 teacher training session. She said that researchers and teacher trainers need to help educators shift to integrating letters into their early reading instruction. “It’s going to take a while to penetrate the belief system that’s out there,” she said.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I once thought that the reading wars were about whether to teach phonics. But there are fierce debates even among those who support a phonics-heavy science of reading. I’ve come to understand that the research hasn’t yet answered all our questions about the best way to teach all the steps. Schools might be over-teaching phonemic awareness. And children with dyslexia might need more than other children. More importantly, the science of reading is the same as any other scientific inquiry. Every new answer may also raise new questions as we get closer to the truth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3050981118&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This story about\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ca href=\"https://hechingerreport.org/proof-points-controversies-within-the-science-of-reading/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">phonemic awareness\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was written by Jill Barshay and produced by \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Hechinger Report\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a nonprofit, independent news organization focused on inequality and innovation in education. Sign up for the \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://hechingerreport.org/proofpoints/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Proof Points newsletter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>*Clarification: An earlier version of this story suggested a different example of removing the “r” sound from “first,” but “r” is not an independent phoneme in this word. So a teacher would be unlikely to ask a student to do this particular sound manipulation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’re going to talk about a really important skill that’s at the root of learning how to read, phonemic awareness. How it’s taught in schools is hotly debated and reading is something too many students and adults still struggle with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our guest is education journalist Jill Barshay of the Hechinger Report. She has a weekly column about education research called “Proof Points.” She’s here to discuss her latest piece about phonemic awareness. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Jill Barshay I’m so glad you’re here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> It’s a pleasure to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Your article about phonemic awareness is the most viewed on MindShift right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So clearly, there’s a lot of interest in this topic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> Really?! [laughs]\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nKi Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, literally tens of thousands of people are reading about phonemic awareness right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’d like to start by asking you to establish a glossary of terms related to learning how to read. Three terms I’d like for you to explain very simply are phonics, phonemes and phonemic awareness. And on phonemes, can you also spell the word out for us?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> Sure, phone name, phoneme phoneme.\u003cbr>\nSo it’s sort of like the word phone with em at the end.\u003cbr>\nAnd what that is, I had a hard time grasping it for many years. It’s sort of sound awareness that you understand the sounds that words are made up of. So, for example, in the word cat, there are three phonemes and they are Cuh, aa, tuh. Phonics is about the letters that we see and what sounds they make. So when you see the circle shape that you know, that’s an O and that it makes the o sound like, as in pot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, phonemic awareness is this awareness that words are made up of sounds. So just like I did cat before, that would be a segmenting or isolating skill cuh, aa , tuh. And then another phonemic awareness skill would be blending them back together, going from cuh aa, tuh to cat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> There are also some other fancy schmancy phonemic awareness skills, but maybe we’ll talk about those later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I appreciate how you said it took you some time to understand these because it took me some time to understand this too because it is so complex.And maybe that speaks to the fact that there are more phonemes than there are letters in the alphabet. And that makes learning how to teach kids how to read all the more challenging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> Right, I just learned in reporting this story that while there are 26 letters to the English alphabet, there are 44 phonemes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So every letter has a sound like, R is err, but IR is its own phoneme and CH makes the chuh sound that’s a phone name, OO, oooh, that’s a phoneme.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so yes, there’s more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So, what did you learn about how phonemic awareness is being taught in schools, especially for kids, age 4 to 6?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> I had become aware from a bunch of reading researchers and also reading advocates that schools were embracing phonemic awareness lessons with the whole rise of the science of reading. And they’re spending many, many minutes in kindergarten and first grade, especially, with all kinds of oral exercises. There are songs that they can do to segment and blend the sounds. And there was a concern that maybe schools are going a little bit overboard with phonemic awareness. Maybe students don’t need so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Can you explain what educators’ understanding of phonemic awareness was? Was it just auditory or was it also how it connects to the visual experience of reading?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> My understanding is that many teachers were trained that there are two separate things to teach kids. One is phonemic awareness and another thing is phonics and in many teacher training sessions, they were saying this is auditory, an oral only skill and you don’t need letters to teach it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of the leading vendors of phonemic awareness lessons was encouraging teachers to teach it as an auditory only lesson. And the instructional materials were largely auditory until very recently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And what problem does that introduce when it’s just auditory?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> In my research, I learned that when phonemic awareness was first being talked about by education or reading experts, they first thought that it could be taught as an oral only exercise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so there were experiments in the 1970’s showing that students who were explicitly taught phonemic awareness became better readers just through these kind of songs and chants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then more and more researchers started to do studies in it. And by 2000, one of the first meta analysis, this is a kind of study where you sweep up lots of studies together and you use statistics to say where the evidence lies, Already over 20 years ago, they said it was much more effective if you combine these phonemic awareness exercises like Cuh aah tuh Cat, with visible displays of the letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So like a teacher could hold up a card or write it on the chalkboard and then the students would see the letters as they say the sounds and become aware of the sounds in their brains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But what was funny was how even as this research was building and building, many schools weren’t teaching much phonemic awareness at all or phonics, phonics again, is putting the sounds to the visible letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And many, many schools around the country were ignoring this and using different methods to teach reading, things that you may have heard of like balanced literacy or the reader’s workshop, reading recovery. And those were methods that didn’t emphasize phonemic awareness or phonics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then more recently, like in the last five years, the science of reading has really gained traction around the country and schools have been really embracing phonemic awareness and that’s where the concern came, that maybe they’re doing too much of it without the letters while all this research is showing, dating back to the year 2000, that if you do phonemic awareness with the letters, it’s much more effective.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And what was the connection you found or maybe the advice around how much time to spend on phonemic awareness?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> Well, that was the study that really caught my attention. Just earlier this year, a group of researchers from Texas A&M University, they were really trying to like nail down the dosage.\u003cbr>\nLike how many minutes of this stuff do the kids really need? Is it two? Is it five, is it 10?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And they collected all the studies that they could find that measured the minutes and they were so frustrated because none of the classroom studies documented the minutes well. And instead they were just left with 16 studies that looked at the amount of time that struggling kids were spending on phonemic awareness in extra sessions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So these might be like a special small group session for a child who’s at risk of dyslexia or a 1 to 1 tutoring session and there they measured the minutes and what they noticed was after 10 hours, phonemic awareness, the auditory only phonemic awareness topped out. Kids weren’t benefiting at all anymore after 10 hours of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if the tutors or the small group teachers, if they combined it with letters, the kids kept getting better and better and better. And so it showed the researchers that if you combine phonemic awareness with the display of the letters, it’s so much more effective.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So it sounds like just the auditory lessons for this sample, 10 hours was fine, though like even just settling on that number is questionable because of the data the researchers have to work with.\u003cbr>\nOverall, the takeaway is connect the sound with the visual letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> Right. What they found is phonemic awareness, oral only can be effective in say a small dose or a medium dose of it, 10 hours, right? But if you want to keep children learning and if you want them to keep improving, that it needs to be connected with the letters after a certain amount of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You’ve explained a lot about phonemic awareness and we’ve talked about 4 to 6 year olds. But what, I guess there are also advanced phonemic awareness techniques that we should also be aware of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> This is where I thought I had went really deep down the rabbit hole. I couldn’t believe advanced phonemic awareness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So in addition to the segmenting cuh aa tuh and blending cat that I discussed before, there are all these other manipulations like you could subtract a sound.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So instead of plant, you get pant and then you can add a sound. Let’s say you can add L back into pant and make it plant. Then there are substitutions. So you can take mat and, and substitute the M with a P and make it pat. And can you imagine doing all these in your head? They’re really hard. And so it, it actually takes many…That’s one of the reasons that so much class time is being spent on these advanced phonemic awareness skills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And what the research literature shows is that the two very simple ones of segmenting and blending, they give you the biggest benefits and some experts say just focus on those and just do them as a quick warm up exercise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> But there are other people, particularly experts in helping children with dyslexia that say no, these really, these advanced phonemic awareness skills can be really helpful in building long term memories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And others have said to me, you know, it can really heighten awareness of a consonant cluster like the difference between Puh and Pula. But they say really these are very complicated exercises, they should only be done with letters, not as oral, only exercises and probably best for struggling students in you know, maybe a pull out session or a tutoring session.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I hear a lot about the term phonological awareness. I know we’re adding a lot of we’re adding another term to our glossary list. But can you explain what phonological awareness is and its role in learning how to read?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> I was really confused about this. And I personally used to use phonological awareness and phonemic awareness interchangeably. And in researching this story, I learned that they’re separate and that phonemic awareness is really the important ingredient in learning to read. And that this phonological awareness is not as important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Phonological awareness is a much broader category that includes not just the sounds that letters and clusters of letters make, but also syllables like pantry that you would clap [claps] pan-try 1, 2 or rhymes like flight, night, sight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there are probably zillions, more of these various sound exercises that are really disconnected from the letters and the sounds that they make. And the researchers are very concerned that teachers who have embraced the science of reading have been told to do too much of these broader phonological awareness exercises that are, you know, great for a poetry unit but not essential building blocks to read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I want to ask you about curriculum because at the root of a lot of these issues, you know, you can maybe even call them mistakes, is curriculum. And ultimately teachers have to go along with the curriculum, the district purchases and sometimes it’s not up to date or not correct or not caught up with the latest research. So what can teachers do when they come across curriculum that goes against what they know works with students?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> I am not an expert in teaching and I don’t feel like my role is to give advice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But what I can say is that the leading purveyor of phonemic awareness lessons and curriculum, if you, you can call it, it’s called Haggerty and they themselves responded to the science and in 2022 they added letters to their phonemic awareness lessons. And then in 2023 they added a a phonics approach to show how to combine phonemic awareness and phonics together in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, there’s a misunderstanding, that a lot of teachers have, that you need to teach phonemic awareness first and students need to master it first before you move on to phonics. And the reading researchers, I talked to say, no, you kind of do them in tandem, like you can have a group of letters and simultaneously be teaching the phonemic awareness with them and the phonics with them and then move on to another group of letters. And you just, you keep teaching both together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> And so I was impressed that this leading seller of phonemic awareness programs has, has moved on and is now combining it with letters and also with phonics and it says for, it knows that many teachers in many schools cannot afford to buy brand new lesson plans and curriculum. And it says that it offers ideas on how teachers can modify their old books and their old printed lessons, and to do things better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t know if that’s a good answer.I mean, it’s probably hard to do these modifications on the fly. And as a journalist from the outside it seems like if, like, when a company says our products not working well and they recall it and they, they put out a new product, they should probably, like, just give you the new product, I’m thinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And what have you heard from people, you know, especially on social media or maybe they’re reaching out to you by email, like what have people been telling you about your reporting?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen two reactions to it. One is people are grateful that the science of reading isn’t a cult and that just because someone says you need a lot of phonemic awareness in order to do the science of reading, right, that isn’t necessarily correct. You have to look at what the studies actually say and also the science evolved. So we, we have more meta analysis now, more syntheses of the research confirming that auditory alone is not as effective today. Whereas in the seventies, it seemed like it was the best way to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And we, I think people who are you know, hold up signs, science of reading, science of reading need to understand that the science of reading, like any science evolves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other reaction I’ve seen are for people who have been critics of the science of reading and say, “see the, the researchers are arguing. Who knows what’s right? This shows we should go back to something called balanced literacy.”\u003cbr>\nAnd so I’ve also, I’ve also seen people taking this as ammunition that,, the whole science of reading is perhaps misguided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And where’s the truth?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> Well, I think I tried to just express that, that science evolves. I mean, it, it, I think about it like, oh, masking and COVID, remember how first when COVID broke out, the federal authorities were saying, “well, you don’t need to wear masks. It’s not so important.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then later, more studies came out and said, you know what, “we should really wear masks,” and I think we need to be comfortable with science evolving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so so maybe there was a time almost 50 years ago that oral only phonemic awareness was the way to go. And now we have a ton of confirmation that we need to combine it with letters and there are still questions out there. We still don’t know the exact right dosage in the classroom for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Jill, thank you for taking the time to talk through this complex issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Well, thanks for talking this through. It’s a complicated area and I appreciate another chance to talk about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Jill Barshay is a journalist with the Hechinger report. She has a weekly column about education research called Proof Points. Her latest piece is about phonemic awareness research. We’ll bring you ideas and innovations from experts in education and beyond. Hit follow on your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss a thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Kara Newhouse, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Jennifer Ng.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our editor is Chris Hambrick, Chris Hoff is our sound designer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additional support from Jen Chien and Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldaña and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n","stats":{"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"hasAudio":true,"hasPolis":false,"wordCount":4875,"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"paragraphCount":98},"modified":1713290773,"excerpt":"Four meta-analyses conclude that it’s more effective to teach phonemic awareness with letters, not as an oral-only exercise.","headData":{"twImgId":"","twTitle":"","ogTitle":"","ogImgId":"","twDescription":"","description":"Four meta-analyses conclude that it’s more effective to teach phonemic awareness with letters, not as an oral-only exercise.","socialDescription":"Four meta-analyses conclude that it’s more effective to teach phonemic awareness with letters, not as an oral-only exercise.","title":"As Schools Embrace the Science of Reading, Researchers are Criticizing an Overemphasis on Auditory Skills | KQED","ogDescription":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"Article","headline":"As Schools Embrace the Science of Reading, Researchers are Criticizing an Overemphasis on Auditory Skills","datePublished":"2024-02-26T03:00:51-08:00","dateModified":"2024-04-16T11:06:13-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"as-schools-embrace-the-science-of-reading-researchers-are-criticizing-an-overemphasis-on-auditory-skills","status":"publish","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC3050981118.mp3?updated=1710227310","nprByline":"Jill Barshay, \u003ca href=\"https://hechingerreport.org/\" target=\"_blank\">The Hechinger Report\u003c/a>","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","sticky":false,"showOnAuthorArchivePages":"No","articleAge":"0","path":"/mindshift/63241/as-schools-embrace-the-science-of-reading-researchers-are-criticizing-an-overemphasis-on-auditory-skills","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Educators around the country have embraced the “science of reading” in their classrooms, but that doesn’t mean there’s a truce in the reading wars. In fact, controversies are emerging about an important but less understood aspect of learning to read: phonemic awareness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s the technical name for showing children how to break down words into their component letter sounds and then fuse the sounds together. In a phonemic awareness lesson, a teacher might ask how many sounds are in the word cat. The answer is three: “k,” “a,” and “t.” Then the class blends the sounds back into the familiar sounding word: from “kuh-aah-tuh” to “kat.” The 26 letters of the English alphabet produce \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.readingrockets.org/sites/default/files/migrated/the-44-phonemes-of-english.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">44 phonemes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, which include unique sounds made from combinations of letters, such as “ch” and “oo.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many schools have purchased scripted oral phonemic awareness lessons that do not include the visual display of letters. The oral lessons are popular because they are easy to teach and fun for students. And that’s the source of the current debate. Should kids in kindergarten or first grade be spending so much time on sounds without understanding how those sounds correspond to letters? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/AN2XIWFWJ3YZDJ3SIFPZ/full?target=10.1080/10888438.2024.2309386\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">new meta-analysis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> confirms that the answer is no. In January 2024, five researchers from Texas A&M University published their findings online in the journal Scientific Studies of Reading. They found that struggling readers, ages 4 to 6, no longer benefited after 10.2 hours of auditory instruction in small group or tutoring sessions, but continued to make progress if visual displays of the letters were combined with the sounds. That means that instead of just asking students to repeat sounds, a teacher might hold up cards with the letters C, A and T printed on them as students isolate and blend the sounds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meta-analyses sweep up all the best research on a topic and use statistics to tell us where the preponderance of the evidence lies. This newest 2024 synthesis follows three previous meta-analyses on phonemic awareness in the past 25 years. While there are sometimes shortcomings in the underlying studies, the conclusions from all the phonemic meta-analyses appear to be pointing in the same direction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3050981118&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“If you teach phonemic awareness, students will learn phonemic awareness,” which isn’t the goal, said \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://understandingreading.home.blog/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tiffany Peltier\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a learning scientist who consults on literacy training for teachers at NWEA, an assessment company. “If you teach blending and segmenting using letters, students are learning to read and spell.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Phonemic awareness has a complicated history. In the 1970s, researchers discovered that good readers also had a good \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.jstor.org/stable/23769540\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">sense of the sounds that constitute words\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. This sound awareness helps students map the written alphabet to the sounds, an important step in learning to read and write. Researchers proved that these auditory skills could be taught and early studies showed that they could be taught as a \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.jstor.org/stable/748042\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">purely oral exercise without letters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But science evolved. In 2000, the National Reading Panel outlined the five pillars of evidence-based reading instruction: phonemic awareness, phonics, fluency, vocabulary and comprehension. This has come to be known as the science of reading. By then, more studies on phonemic awareness had been conducted and oral lessons alone were not as successful. The reading panel’s meta-analysis of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nichd.nih.gov/sites/default/files/publications/pubs/nrp/Documents/report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">52 studies\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> showed that phonemic awareness instruction was almost twice as effective when letters were presented along with the sounds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many schools ignored the reading panel’s recommendations and chose different approaches that didn’t systematically teach phonics or phonemic awareness. But as the science of reading grew in popularity in the past decade, phonemic awareness lessons also exploded. Teacher training programs in the science of reading emphasized the \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">importance of phonemic awareness\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://heggerty.org/curriculum/?utm_term=heggerty&utm_campaign=(D)+Branded+-+Search+(CORE)&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=8080130874&hsa_cam=10845962543&hsa_grp=105585801103&hsa_ad=473028550698&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=kwd-315916039120&hsa_kw=heggerty&hsa_mt=e&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA_tuuBhAUEiwAvxkgTrb7QXk6Q-sfzjdjbXZ0Slz4rS0CvAY10pE_vHsD2ggQe_OxB4Z-gxoCtAUQAvD_BwE\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Companies sold phonemic programs to schools\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and told teachers to teach it every day. Many of these lessons were auditory, including chants and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDSGFUhCxjI\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">songs without letters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Researchers worried that educators were overemphasizing auditory training. A 2021 article, “\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/ajxbv\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They Say You Can Do Phonemic Awareness Instruction ‘In the Dark’, But Should You?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">” by nine prominent reading researchers criticized how phonemic awareness was being taught in schools. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Twenty years after the reading panel’s report, a \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://pubs.asha.org/doi/10.1044/2022_LSHSS-21-00160\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">second meta-analysis came out in 2022\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> with even fresher studies but arrived at the same conclusion. Researchers from Baylor University analyzed over 130 studies and found twice the benefits for phonemic awareness when it was taught with letters. A \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.triplesr.org/sites/default/files/uploads/draft_program_6-18-2022.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">third meta-analysis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was presented at a poster session of the 2022 annual meeting of the Society for the Scientific Study of Reading. It also found that instruction was more effective when sounds and letters were combined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the surface, adding letters to sounds might seem identical to teaching phonics. But some reading experts say phonemic awareness with letters still emphasizes the auditory skills of segmenting words into sounds and blending the sounds together. The visual display of the letter is almost like a subliminal teaching of phonics without explicitly saying, “This alphabetic symbol ‘a’ makes the sound ‘ah’.” Others explain that there isn’t a bright line between phonemic awareness and phonics and they can be taught in tandem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The authors of the latest 2024 meta-analysis had hoped to give teachers more guidance on how much classroom time to invest on phonemic awareness. But unfortunately, the classroom studies they found didn’t keep track of the minutes. The researchers were left with only 16 high-quality studies, all of which were interventions with struggling students. These were small group or individual tutoring sessions on top of whatever phonemic awareness lessons children may also have been receiving in their regular classrooms, which was not documented. So it’s impossible to say from this meta-analysis exactly how much sound training students need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The lead author of the 2024 meta-analysis, Florina Erbeli, an education psychologist at Texas A&M, said that the 10.2 hours number in her paper isn’t a “magic number.” It’s just an average of the results of the 16 studies that met her criteria for being included in the meta-analysis. The right amount of phonemic awareness might be more or less, depending on the child. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Erbeli said the bigger point for teachers to understand is that there are diminishing returns to auditory-only instruction and that students learn much more when auditory skills are combined with visible letters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I corresponded with Heggerty, the market leader in phonemic awareness lessons, which says its programs are in 70% of U.S. school districts. The company acknowledged that the science of reading has evolved, and that’s why it revised its phonemic awareness program in 2022 to incorporate letters and introduced a new program in 2023 to pair it with phonics. The company says it is working with outside researchers to keep improving the instructional materials it sells to schools. Because many schools cannot afford to buy a new instructional program, Heggerty says it also explains how teachers can modify older auditory lessons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The company still recommends that teachers spend eight to 12 minutes a day on phonemic awareness through the end of first grade. This recommendation contrasts with the advice of many reading researchers who say the average kid doesn’t need this much. Many researchers say that phonemic awareness continues to develop automatically as the child’s reading skills improve without advanced auditory training. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NWEA literacy consultant Peltier, whom I quoted earlier, suggests that phonemic awareness can be tapered off by the fall of first grade. More phonemic awareness isn’t necessarily harmful, but there’s only so much instructional time in the day. She thinks that precious minutes currently devoted to oral phonemic awareness could be better spent on phonics, building vocabulary and content knowledge through reading books aloud, classroom discussions and writing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another developer of a \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.equippedforreadingsuccess.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">phonemic awareness program\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> aimed at older, struggling readers is David Kilpatrick, professor emeritus at the State University of New York at Cortland. He told me that five minutes a day might be enough for the average student in a classroom, but some struggling students need a lot more. Kilpatrick disagrees with the conclusions of the meta-analyses because they lump different types of students together. He says severely dyslexic students need more auditory training. He explained that extra time is needed for advanced auditory work that helps these students build long-term memories, he said, and the meta-analyses didn’t measure that outcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another reading expert, Susan Brady, professor emerita at the University of Rhode Island, concurs that some of the more advanced manipulations can help some students. Moving a sound in and out of a word can heighten awareness of a consonant cluster, such as taking the “l” out of the word “plant” to get “pant,” and then inserting it back in again.* But she says this kind of sound substitution should only be done with visible letters. Doing all the sound manipulations in your head is too taxing for young children, she said.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brady’s concern is the misunderstanding that teachers need to teach all the phonemes before moving on to phonics. It’s not a precursor or a prerequisite to reading and writing, she says. Instead, sound training should be taught at the same time as new groups of letters are introduced. “The letters reinforce the phoneme awareness and the phoneme awareness reinforces the letters,” said Brady, speaking at a 2022 teacher training session. She said that researchers and teacher trainers need to help educators shift to integrating letters into their early reading instruction. “It’s going to take a while to penetrate the belief system that’s out there,” she said.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I once thought that the reading wars were about whether to teach phonics. But there are fierce debates even among those who support a phonics-heavy science of reading. I’ve come to understand that the research hasn’t yet answered all our questions about the best way to teach all the steps. Schools might be over-teaching phonemic awareness. And children with dyslexia might need more than other children. More importantly, the science of reading is the same as any other scientific inquiry. Every new answer may also raise new questions as we get closer to the truth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3050981118&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This story about\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ca href=\"https://hechingerreport.org/proof-points-controversies-within-the-science-of-reading/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">phonemic awareness\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was written by Jill Barshay and produced by \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Hechinger Report\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a nonprofit, independent news organization focused on inequality and innovation in education. Sign up for the \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://hechingerreport.org/proofpoints/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Proof Points newsletter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>*Clarification: An earlier version of this story suggested a different example of removing the “r” sound from “first,” but “r” is not an independent phoneme in this word. So a teacher would be unlikely to ask a student to do this particular sound manipulation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’re going to talk about a really important skill that’s at the root of learning how to read, phonemic awareness. How it’s taught in schools is hotly debated and reading is something too many students and adults still struggle with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our guest is education journalist Jill Barshay of the Hechinger Report. She has a weekly column about education research called “Proof Points.” She’s here to discuss her latest piece about phonemic awareness. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Jill Barshay I’m so glad you’re here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> It’s a pleasure to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Your article about phonemic awareness is the most viewed on MindShift right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So clearly, there’s a lot of interest in this topic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> Really?! [laughs]\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nKi Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, literally tens of thousands of people are reading about phonemic awareness right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’d like to start by asking you to establish a glossary of terms related to learning how to read. Three terms I’d like for you to explain very simply are phonics, phonemes and phonemic awareness. And on phonemes, can you also spell the word out for us?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> Sure, phone name, phoneme phoneme.\u003cbr>\nSo it’s sort of like the word phone with em at the end.\u003cbr>\nAnd what that is, I had a hard time grasping it for many years. It’s sort of sound awareness that you understand the sounds that words are made up of. So, for example, in the word cat, there are three phonemes and they are Cuh, aa, tuh. Phonics is about the letters that we see and what sounds they make. So when you see the circle shape that you know, that’s an O and that it makes the o sound like, as in pot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, phonemic awareness is this awareness that words are made up of sounds. So just like I did cat before, that would be a segmenting or isolating skill cuh, aa , tuh. And then another phonemic awareness skill would be blending them back together, going from cuh aa, tuh to cat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> There are also some other fancy schmancy phonemic awareness skills, but maybe we’ll talk about those later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I appreciate how you said it took you some time to understand these because it took me some time to understand this too because it is so complex.And maybe that speaks to the fact that there are more phonemes than there are letters in the alphabet. And that makes learning how to teach kids how to read all the more challenging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> Right, I just learned in reporting this story that while there are 26 letters to the English alphabet, there are 44 phonemes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So every letter has a sound like, R is err, but IR is its own phoneme and CH makes the chuh sound that’s a phone name, OO, oooh, that’s a phoneme.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so yes, there’s more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So, what did you learn about how phonemic awareness is being taught in schools, especially for kids, age 4 to 6?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> I had become aware from a bunch of reading researchers and also reading advocates that schools were embracing phonemic awareness lessons with the whole rise of the science of reading. And they’re spending many, many minutes in kindergarten and first grade, especially, with all kinds of oral exercises. There are songs that they can do to segment and blend the sounds. And there was a concern that maybe schools are going a little bit overboard with phonemic awareness. Maybe students don’t need so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Can you explain what educators’ understanding of phonemic awareness was? Was it just auditory or was it also how it connects to the visual experience of reading?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> My understanding is that many teachers were trained that there are two separate things to teach kids. One is phonemic awareness and another thing is phonics and in many teacher training sessions, they were saying this is auditory, an oral only skill and you don’t need letters to teach it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of the leading vendors of phonemic awareness lessons was encouraging teachers to teach it as an auditory only lesson. And the instructional materials were largely auditory until very recently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And what problem does that introduce when it’s just auditory?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> In my research, I learned that when phonemic awareness was first being talked about by education or reading experts, they first thought that it could be taught as an oral only exercise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so there were experiments in the 1970’s showing that students who were explicitly taught phonemic awareness became better readers just through these kind of songs and chants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then more and more researchers started to do studies in it. And by 2000, one of the first meta analysis, this is a kind of study where you sweep up lots of studies together and you use statistics to say where the evidence lies, Already over 20 years ago, they said it was much more effective if you combine these phonemic awareness exercises like Cuh aah tuh Cat, with visible displays of the letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So like a teacher could hold up a card or write it on the chalkboard and then the students would see the letters as they say the sounds and become aware of the sounds in their brains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But what was funny was how even as this research was building and building, many schools weren’t teaching much phonemic awareness at all or phonics, phonics again, is putting the sounds to the visible letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And many, many schools around the country were ignoring this and using different methods to teach reading, things that you may have heard of like balanced literacy or the reader’s workshop, reading recovery. And those were methods that didn’t emphasize phonemic awareness or phonics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then more recently, like in the last five years, the science of reading has really gained traction around the country and schools have been really embracing phonemic awareness and that’s where the concern came, that maybe they’re doing too much of it without the letters while all this research is showing, dating back to the year 2000, that if you do phonemic awareness with the letters, it’s much more effective.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And what was the connection you found or maybe the advice around how much time to spend on phonemic awareness?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> Well, that was the study that really caught my attention. Just earlier this year, a group of researchers from Texas A&M University, they were really trying to like nail down the dosage.\u003cbr>\nLike how many minutes of this stuff do the kids really need? Is it two? Is it five, is it 10?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And they collected all the studies that they could find that measured the minutes and they were so frustrated because none of the classroom studies documented the minutes well. And instead they were just left with 16 studies that looked at the amount of time that struggling kids were spending on phonemic awareness in extra sessions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So these might be like a special small group session for a child who’s at risk of dyslexia or a 1 to 1 tutoring session and there they measured the minutes and what they noticed was after 10 hours, phonemic awareness, the auditory only phonemic awareness topped out. Kids weren’t benefiting at all anymore after 10 hours of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if the tutors or the small group teachers, if they combined it with letters, the kids kept getting better and better and better. And so it showed the researchers that if you combine phonemic awareness with the display of the letters, it’s so much more effective.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So it sounds like just the auditory lessons for this sample, 10 hours was fine, though like even just settling on that number is questionable because of the data the researchers have to work with.\u003cbr>\nOverall, the takeaway is connect the sound with the visual letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> Right. What they found is phonemic awareness, oral only can be effective in say a small dose or a medium dose of it, 10 hours, right? But if you want to keep children learning and if you want them to keep improving, that it needs to be connected with the letters after a certain amount of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You’ve explained a lot about phonemic awareness and we’ve talked about 4 to 6 year olds. But what, I guess there are also advanced phonemic awareness techniques that we should also be aware of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> This is where I thought I had went really deep down the rabbit hole. I couldn’t believe advanced phonemic awareness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So in addition to the segmenting cuh aa tuh and blending cat that I discussed before, there are all these other manipulations like you could subtract a sound.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So instead of plant, you get pant and then you can add a sound. Let’s say you can add L back into pant and make it plant. Then there are substitutions. So you can take mat and, and substitute the M with a P and make it pat. And can you imagine doing all these in your head? They’re really hard. And so it, it actually takes many…That’s one of the reasons that so much class time is being spent on these advanced phonemic awareness skills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And what the research literature shows is that the two very simple ones of segmenting and blending, they give you the biggest benefits and some experts say just focus on those and just do them as a quick warm up exercise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> But there are other people, particularly experts in helping children with dyslexia that say no, these really, these advanced phonemic awareness skills can be really helpful in building long term memories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And others have said to me, you know, it can really heighten awareness of a consonant cluster like the difference between Puh and Pula. But they say really these are very complicated exercises, they should only be done with letters, not as oral, only exercises and probably best for struggling students in you know, maybe a pull out session or a tutoring session.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I hear a lot about the term phonological awareness. I know we’re adding a lot of we’re adding another term to our glossary list. But can you explain what phonological awareness is and its role in learning how to read?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> I was really confused about this. And I personally used to use phonological awareness and phonemic awareness interchangeably. And in researching this story, I learned that they’re separate and that phonemic awareness is really the important ingredient in learning to read. And that this phonological awareness is not as important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Phonological awareness is a much broader category that includes not just the sounds that letters and clusters of letters make, but also syllables like pantry that you would clap [claps] pan-try 1, 2 or rhymes like flight, night, sight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there are probably zillions, more of these various sound exercises that are really disconnected from the letters and the sounds that they make. And the researchers are very concerned that teachers who have embraced the science of reading have been told to do too much of these broader phonological awareness exercises that are, you know, great for a poetry unit but not essential building blocks to read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I want to ask you about curriculum because at the root of a lot of these issues, you know, you can maybe even call them mistakes, is curriculum. And ultimately teachers have to go along with the curriculum, the district purchases and sometimes it’s not up to date or not correct or not caught up with the latest research. So what can teachers do when they come across curriculum that goes against what they know works with students?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> I am not an expert in teaching and I don’t feel like my role is to give advice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But what I can say is that the leading purveyor of phonemic awareness lessons and curriculum, if you, you can call it, it’s called Haggerty and they themselves responded to the science and in 2022 they added letters to their phonemic awareness lessons. And then in 2023 they added a a phonics approach to show how to combine phonemic awareness and phonics together in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, there’s a misunderstanding, that a lot of teachers have, that you need to teach phonemic awareness first and students need to master it first before you move on to phonics. And the reading researchers, I talked to say, no, you kind of do them in tandem, like you can have a group of letters and simultaneously be teaching the phonemic awareness with them and the phonics with them and then move on to another group of letters. And you just, you keep teaching both together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> And so I was impressed that this leading seller of phonemic awareness programs has, has moved on and is now combining it with letters and also with phonics and it says for, it knows that many teachers in many schools cannot afford to buy brand new lesson plans and curriculum. And it says that it offers ideas on how teachers can modify their old books and their old printed lessons, and to do things better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t know if that’s a good answer.I mean, it’s probably hard to do these modifications on the fly. And as a journalist from the outside it seems like if, like, when a company says our products not working well and they recall it and they, they put out a new product, they should probably, like, just give you the new product, I’m thinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And what have you heard from people, you know, especially on social media or maybe they’re reaching out to you by email, like what have people been telling you about your reporting?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen two reactions to it. One is people are grateful that the science of reading isn’t a cult and that just because someone says you need a lot of phonemic awareness in order to do the science of reading, right, that isn’t necessarily correct. You have to look at what the studies actually say and also the science evolved. So we, we have more meta analysis now, more syntheses of the research confirming that auditory alone is not as effective today. Whereas in the seventies, it seemed like it was the best way to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And we, I think people who are you know, hold up signs, science of reading, science of reading need to understand that the science of reading, like any science evolves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other reaction I’ve seen are for people who have been critics of the science of reading and say, “see the, the researchers are arguing. Who knows what’s right? This shows we should go back to something called balanced literacy.”\u003cbr>\nAnd so I’ve also, I’ve also seen people taking this as ammunition that,, the whole science of reading is perhaps misguided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And where’s the truth?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jill Barshay:\u003c/strong> Well, I think I tried to just express that, that science evolves. I mean, it, it, I think about it like, oh, masking and COVID, remember how first when COVID broke out, the federal authorities were saying, “well, you don’t need to wear masks. It’s not so important.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then later, more studies came out and said, you know what, “we should really wear masks,” and I think we need to be comfortable with science evolving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so so maybe there was a time almost 50 years ago that oral only phonemic awareness was the way to go. And now we have a ton of confirmation that we need to combine it with letters and there are still questions out there. We still don’t know the exact right dosage in the classroom for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Jill, thank you for taking the time to talk through this complex issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Well, thanks for talking this through. It’s a complicated area and I appreciate another chance to talk about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Jill Barshay is a journalist with the Hechinger report. She has a weekly column about education research called Proof Points. Her latest piece is about phonemic awareness research. We’ll bring you ideas and innovations from experts in education and beyond. Hit follow on your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss a thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Kara Newhouse, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Jennifer Ng.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our editor is Chris Hambrick, Chris Hoff is our sound designer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additional support from Jen Chien and Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldaña and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/mindshift/63241/as-schools-embrace-the-science-of-reading-researchers-are-criticizing-an-overemphasis-on-auditory-skills","authors":["byline_mindshift_63241"],"categories":["mindshift_21504","mindshift_21130","mindshift_193"],"tags":["mindshift_397","mindshift_444","mindshift_21132","mindshift_21335","mindshift_550","mindshift_21616"],"featImg":"mindshift_63242","label":"mindshift"},"mindshift_63160":{"type":"posts","id":"mindshift_63160","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"mindshift","id":"63160","score":null,"sort":[1707895295000]},"parent":0,"labelTerm":{"site":"mindshift"},"blocks":[],"publishDate":1707895295,"format":"audio","title":"5 Cognitive Biases that Shape Classroom Interactions – And How to Overcome Them","headTitle":"5 Cognitive Biases that Shape Classroom Interactions – And How to Overcome Them | KQED","content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teachers are tasked with making countless decisions every day, and some of those decisions happen quickly because they are rooted in bias. While bias is everywhere, the impact can be especially negative on students and how they are perceived and treated as learners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Former high school English teacher Tricia Ebarvia wrote the book “\u003ca href=\"https://us.corwin.com/books/get-free-285820\">Get Free: \u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://us.corwin.com/books/get-free-285820\">Antibias Literacy Instruction for Stronger Readers, Writers, and Thinkers\u003c/a>” as a way to help educators and students think about five biases that are pervasive in the classroom. Her hope is that when people can see their own biases, they can see the world more clearly and feel enabled to be develop the skills they need to thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6360082356&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to the MindShift Podcast, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung. Educator \u003ca href=\"https://triciaebarvia.org/about/\">Tricia Ebarvia\u003c/a> has been at the intersection of English instruction and identity, both for educators and students. She advocates for a more complete way of seeing ourselves, one another and curricula. She’s a co-founder of\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/55039/how-the-disrupttexts-movement-can-help-english-teachers-be-more-inclusive\"> #DisruptTexts\u003c/a> and just published a book titled\u003ca href=\"https://us.corwin.com/books/get-free-285820\"> Get Free Anti-bias Literacy Instruction for Stronger Readers, Writers, and Thinkers\u003c/a>. She’s on our podcast today to unpack bias, which is all around us, and to share tips on how teachers can enable students to improve their reading and writing skills. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://us.corwin.com/books/get-free-285820\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-63163\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2024/02/Get-Free-Cover.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"250\" height=\"354\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2024/02/Get-Free-Cover.jpeg 395w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2024/02/Get-Free-Cover-160x227.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 250px) 100vw, 250px\">\u003c/a>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Tricia Ebarvia, welcome to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Tricia, you’re a director of diversity, equity and inclusion at a K-8 school. Tricia, you also spent 20 years teaching high school English. Tell us what motivated you to write your book \u003cem>Get Free\u003c/em>?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Well, the short answer to that is my students, right? I think that my work in the classroom especially, was what motivated me to, write this book for other educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And when you say for your students, what were you seeing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> I think about different stages in my own teaching life. I think about the early career teacher who was Tricia in, you know, more than 20 years ago. And I think about the way I showed up in the classroom for my students then, versus how I start to show up in the classroom as I became a more experienced teacher. And so I thought about the ways in which my students have really shaped me. And, you know, even though I may have the title of teacher in the classroom, I mean, I learn just as much, from them every single day. And so when I think about writing this book for my students, I think about all the students that other teachers also have and how they might benefit from having their teachers do some of the work that I suggest and get free, to do the kind of self-reflective anti-bias instructional practices that I think my early career. Tricia, you know, teacher days could have really benefited from. So I think I’m just trying to help students presently in classrooms and in the future, whether they’re in my specific classroom or not, have a different kind of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You probably get this a lot, Tricia. Whenever we broach the topic of bias, it’s a common response for anyone to get defensive. Can you explain to us, what is bias?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So bias is something that I would teach in my classroom, actually. And I would sort of define it really from more of a sort of the cognitive science viewpoint, which is to say that we all have biases. They are neither good nor bad. They’re like mental shortcuts that we have. So, you know, when you think about, you know, I’m sitting here right now speaking with you, and there are lots of different stimuli that are coming at me. Right. I can think about the way in which, like, I’m sitting in the seats. I can think about the the air in the room. I can think about the noises down the hallway. All these different things are coming at me at once. And what our brain needs to do is to sort of focus. And we have these biases, these sort of like mental shortcuts that help us to understand what is what we need to focus on in the particular moment. And that’s what our brain likes to do. It takes a shortcut to get there. Now, sometimes these biases can lead us to faulty conclusions, but other times it can also be things that, you know, save our lives, right? I mean, I don’t need to stop and do slow thinking when it comes to seeing like a, you know, like a large animal approaching me. Right? Like that. I know immediately my instinct takes over. But when we think about all the different decisions that educators make at any given time and during the day, I think researchers heads anywhere. I’ve seen everything cited from like a few hundred to even like a thousand decisions in a day. We don’t stop to think about them. You know, we don’t carefully weigh every single one, and we don’t let all the different stimuli, like, affect us. We we, you know, we have to rely on a mental shortcut. And I think that, when we think about bias, we have to think about the ways in which those biases are impacting us and informing our decision making, sometimes in potentially harmful ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And in the first chapter of your book, you outlined five biases that educators in particular are engaging in. Can you describe those?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> One bias is the curse of knowledge. And this bias basically is that, you know, the more that we we’re sort of coerced by knowledge in the sense that once I learn how to do a specific skill or acquire a specific set of knowledge, we start to sort of lose the ability to appreciate what it is like to learn that skill or acquire that knowledge for the first time. So the example that I gave in the book is that, you know, when I was first teaching, I thought my students were absolutely brilliant and they absolutely were too. I mean, I was the first time I was teaching any of the books that I had taught that first my, you know, back in the early 2000. And every idea that they offered me was I just thought was absolutely brilliant because I had never heard them before. And as many English teachers know, you often, teach the same books over and over and over again. And what happens over the years is that you, as the educator, acquire knowledge. From your students and from your own work. You know, when you read a book, you know however many times and discuss it like five times a day? With students, you realize that in some ways, there’s only so much that can be said about a Booker. But over the years, the ideas that students were sharing in class, their interpretations, it became more rare for these interpretations to be or from my perspective, to seem new, really, because I had sort of heard everything before. And so, this curse of knowledge actually made it sort of in some ways harder for me to appreciate the ways in which my kids were bringing what was, for them, new knowledge and really original knowledge. And instead I was looking at it more from, you know, well, of course they would know that. Right. So that’s one, you know, simple thing, but I think is something that, changes the way that we interact with kids. So one of the things that I did is, I would always find opportunities to read something, new with students to put myself in a learning stance with them. So I wasn’t always relying on all the knowledge I had acquired over years, and sort of unfairly judging them on what they weren’t bringing to a text.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Tricia, I want to acknowledge for our listeners that recess is obviously in session. Good to hear that you’re a real life educator. Now let’s get back to the second bias you unpack in your book, Nostalgia Bias.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> If you’ve been a classroom teacher for any number of years, you I’m sure you have heard seasoned teachers in a, department room say things like, well, kids these days or, you know, kids used to be able to do X, Y, or Z. But unfortunately, you know, those that kind of thinking and that kind of, you know, judgment on kids isn’t really isn’t really healthy. It’s based on this idea that kids were somehow better in the past. And I think this can be especially hard or problematic when we think about the ways in which our student population is changing all around the country. If we have sort of these rosy colored glasses about what kids used to be able to do and unfairly start judging the kids in front of us, especially kids who may be coming, you know, if your classroom is become more diverse and you have a view of what kids used to be able to do before and and now you’re looking at kids and you’re thinking, oh, well, you know, they don’t have all the same skills, or now they’re always on their phones, or now they’re doing this and that. You know, that’s a bias that we also need to be aware of. Because the truth is, there are some things about kids that have just always remain the same. My kids are kids at the end of the day. So the nostalgia bias and when I unpack how that can get in our way, another bias that I talk about in the first chapter is the anchoring bias. And the anchoring bias is really interesting. In fact, it’s this bias that, happens when we are anchored to the initial information we receive about something. So the anchoring bias, when I think about it in schools, I think about the beginning of the school year and how at the beginning of the school year, we might be anchored to information about a student or students or groups of students, that then disproportionately affect or inform the way we see those students from as the year goes on. One clear example of this is, you know, like, I used to do this thing where we would go around and share, class list with previous with teachers who had taught this class the year before, and teachers would look at the list and we’d have all sorts of reactions like, oh, watch out for this kid or this student does X, Y, or Z, or this one’s really great, right? They we give feedback of to something that we very we were being helpful to our colleagues. And after, you know, it didn’t take long for me to start to realize that, you know, this information more often than not did more harm than good, because I would start to question in what ways this information, especially if it was negative information, unfairly inform the way I might be treating students or thinking about students. And I think that’s really hard. I think kids, especially at the beginning of the school year, we all deserve a chance to sort of start anew and have second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth chances and to have that kind of feedback, especially if it’s negative, follow kids around and potentially anchor to future teachers experiences of them to that particular like view. I think it’s just unfair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Okay, Tricia, you’ve covered three biases. What’s another bias you’ve seen in classrooms that if address can help students learn?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Another one of course, is in-group bias, which, you know, again, this this is none of these things are like necessarily groundbreaking. But when you start to think about the ways in which they might just be impacting our relationships with kids, it can be negative. So in-group bias just occurs when we show preference for those who are similar to us. Period. Right. It’s very natural to do like I. Have to admit, like I have a bias or I had a bias for many years in my teaching for kids who were very similar to who I was when I was a student, and so I was very quiet as a student. You know, I would be horrified if if a teacher called on me without, you know, without me raising my hand. So I have, you know, I have a sort of special place when I look in my classroom for the kids who might also be sensitive to that. So you might have favoritism towards or give the benefit of the doubt to kids who are more similar to you. And I think it’s important for teachers to sort of keep track of that range, to do that self-reflective work around, like, what are my identities, what makes me who I am, what are my relationships like with kids in the class is, you know, I might get along with certain kids or I might treat certain students favorably or unfavorably, depending on, I might say that it’s because of their work or the way they’re showing up. But let me actually think for a moment and step back and say, well, is there something else that could be potentially driving this? And one question that I ask in that chapter is, you know, when we think about the kids, maybe that we don’t have as strong of a relationship to, to what extent might that be? Because they are the ones who are also least like us, right? Or kids who are considered quote unquote troublemakers in school. You know, to what extent are those kids who are least like the ideal student in class?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Tricia, you’ve talked about four biases. Let’s review them real quick. The bias of knowledge, nostalgia bias, the anchoring bias and ingroup bias. What’s the last bias you write about in your book?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> The last bias that I discussed in chapter one is the just world hypothesis, which I think is one that, you know, the term I don’t think people might. People might not be as familiar with, but it’s basically this idea that, you know, we believe that the world is an inherently just place, that what goes around comes around. Right? Like, if I do this, then I get that if I work hard, then I will get good grades. That’s the sort of very oversimplified equation of the just world hypothesis that you get what you deserve. And I just think about how so much of our school system is built around this idea, like meritocracy, right? This idea that, like you, you get what you deserve. And therefore if you do well, then good things will happen to you. But then the other side of that is that if you’re not doing well, then somehow you deserved that rain. And I think too often we might, ignore or overlook the ways in which people, circumstances and different systems of oppression or unfairness and barriers might actually get in the way. So that bias is something that I, I really try to unpack a bit in the first chapter to have teachers really sort of think about that, because once you know about that bias, you start hearing teachers, you start hearing the assumption of that bias in the conversations we tend to have with kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Knowing these five biases that you unpacked. How does that connect to helping students become stronger readers, writers, and thinkers? Can you make that connection?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Sure. So I think the longer that I taught and the longer that I teach, the more I realize that without having a strong anti-bias lens, like it’s really hard to be a critical thinker, right? Because when we think about being a strong reader, writer or thinker, I mean, we think about how we absorb a text, how we read and respond to different texts. And that text can be, you know, the book where the reading in class, it could be a video that we’re watching. It could even be outside of school. And I’m just watching television, or I’m watching the news, or I’m scrolling my social media feeds, and we all have responses and reactions in the moment. And I think it’s important for kids to be able to stop and reflect for a moment and think, okay, where is that response coming from? Like, if I see something and it makes me very upset, if I see something that I profoundly disagree with, I might say, okay, well, this is because I have these values. This is because I have this evidence. This is because x, y, or z. But I think it’s important to take a step back and say, how have I been socialized to have this reaction? Because biases at the end of the day are also things that we’ve been socialized to, embody.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> One thing I hear from anyone pushing for liberation or anti-bias is to reframe the narrative, you know, and the tools you’re talking about for students, sounds like also helps with this reframing of the narrative. That so much of what students are taught are about, you know, the worst things that can happen to people, especially if they’re not white. And I think for teens in particular, you know, who are emotional and developing, there’s this tendency to catastrophize, you know, to kind of dwell on those worst things. And, you know, with this mental health crisis that. Is pretty widespread in this country. You know, and all the media that we consume that has a lot of those worse things. How does thinking beyond the worst thing help students reframe and possibly get a more accurate, hopeful version of themselves?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia\u003c/strong>: Yeah. Thanks for, raising that. In the book, I talk about, you know, one of the books that I used to teach with my students was, Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson in that book. There’s a wonderful quote where in the very beginning that almost every time I taught it, kids would always tell me that that was one of their favorite passages. And it was really about how we are. We are more than the worst thing that we’ve ever done. Right before I start teaching that book, though, I pose a question to kids and I asked them, you know, to write down like a list of, you know, things that they’re really proud of, things that make them who they are. You know, like the it’s like the resume lists, you know, all the sense of accomplishments and all the things you want people to know about you. And then I also asked them to write about a time that they didn’t show up as their best selves, where they had an argument with a friend. Maybe they lied. Maybe they were mean spirited, like all the worst. Like, think about the worst things, the the worst version of themselves. And we that’s the thing. We all have a worst version of ourselves, right? And they write that down. And so then I, then I ask them like, well, what’s the truth? Like is the list of all the positive things about yourself, the truth? What about the list of all the negative things or your worst version of yourself? Where’s the truth here, right? You know, and I’m speaking just in binaries right here, just for the, you know, the point of the exercise. But both of these lists are true, right? These are all things about us. But together they form a more complete picture. And even then, there’s a lot that’s in between these two things, right? Between the very best and then the catastrophe of who we are. Right. So there’s a whole middle section. Right. And so when we’re doing this writing and we’re thinking about this work and we’re thinking about, how we’re interpreting the things that we’re reading or we’re absorbing the way, the news that we’re seeing, it’s one of those exercises that I do with kids to help them see that there can never really be like, I like that idea of a single story, that we have to constantly seek multiple perspectives to have grace for ourselves. When we think about mental health, I think, you know, developmentally, kids are really trying to figure out who they are, and they think that this one thing is defining for them. And, you know, I think the work that we do as educators is help kids see that no one thing can define who they are, that they are beautiful, messy, complex human beings with so much in between and so many contradictions. And if they can have that kind of grace for themselves, which is so important, that sort of self-love, then I think that we have a better shot of being able to have that grace and that love for other people. If I can think to myself, okay, I’m a messy person and I have contradictions and I say things or do things that sometimes I’m not, I’m not proud of, how can I afford that to the person? How can I afford that kind of grace and flexibility of thinking to the person who’s now sitting across from me? And maybe we disagree on things, but I still see them as a complex person who is worthy of dignity. Right? So that complexity, I think, allows us in that complexity that allows us the grace to see ourselves in more humane ways and to see others the same way, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And who doesn’t want that for students and educators?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Tricia Ebarvia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n","stats":{"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"hasAudio":true,"hasPolis":false,"wordCount":3930,"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"paragraphCount":32},"modified":1713291222,"excerpt":"Bias is all around us. But when educators and students can identify and think critically about that bias, learning can flourish from newfound truths. ","headData":{"twImgId":"","twTitle":"","ogTitle":"","ogImgId":"","twDescription":"","description":"Bias is all around us. But when educators and students can identify and think critically about that bias, learning can flourish from newfound truths. ","title":"5 Cognitive Biases that Shape Classroom Interactions – And How to Overcome Them | KQED","ogDescription":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"Article","headline":"5 Cognitive Biases that Shape Classroom Interactions – And How to Overcome Them","datePublished":"2024-02-13T23:21:35-08:00","dateModified":"2024-04-16T11:13:42-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"5-cognitive-biases-that-shape-classroom-interactions-and-how-to-overcome-them","status":"publish","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC6360082356.mp3?updated=1707786862","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","sticky":false,"articleAge":"0","path":"/mindshift/63160/5-cognitive-biases-that-shape-classroom-interactions-and-how-to-overcome-them","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teachers are tasked with making countless decisions every day, and some of those decisions happen quickly because they are rooted in bias. While bias is everywhere, the impact can be especially negative on students and how they are perceived and treated as learners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Former high school English teacher Tricia Ebarvia wrote the book “\u003ca href=\"https://us.corwin.com/books/get-free-285820\">Get Free: \u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://us.corwin.com/books/get-free-285820\">Antibias Literacy Instruction for Stronger Readers, Writers, and Thinkers\u003c/a>” as a way to help educators and students think about five biases that are pervasive in the classroom. Her hope is that when people can see their own biases, they can see the world more clearly and feel enabled to be develop the skills they need to thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6360082356&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to the MindShift Podcast, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung. Educator \u003ca href=\"https://triciaebarvia.org/about/\">Tricia Ebarvia\u003c/a> has been at the intersection of English instruction and identity, both for educators and students. She advocates for a more complete way of seeing ourselves, one another and curricula. She’s a co-founder of\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/55039/how-the-disrupttexts-movement-can-help-english-teachers-be-more-inclusive\"> #DisruptTexts\u003c/a> and just published a book titled\u003ca href=\"https://us.corwin.com/books/get-free-285820\"> Get Free Anti-bias Literacy Instruction for Stronger Readers, Writers, and Thinkers\u003c/a>. She’s on our podcast today to unpack bias, which is all around us, and to share tips on how teachers can enable students to improve their reading and writing skills. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://us.corwin.com/books/get-free-285820\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-63163\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2024/02/Get-Free-Cover.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"250\" height=\"354\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2024/02/Get-Free-Cover.jpeg 395w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2024/02/Get-Free-Cover-160x227.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 250px) 100vw, 250px\">\u003c/a>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Tricia Ebarvia, welcome to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Tricia, you’re a director of diversity, equity and inclusion at a K-8 school. Tricia, you also spent 20 years teaching high school English. Tell us what motivated you to write your book \u003cem>Get Free\u003c/em>?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Well, the short answer to that is my students, right? I think that my work in the classroom especially, was what motivated me to, write this book for other educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And when you say for your students, what were you seeing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> I think about different stages in my own teaching life. I think about the early career teacher who was Tricia in, you know, more than 20 years ago. And I think about the way I showed up in the classroom for my students then, versus how I start to show up in the classroom as I became a more experienced teacher. And so I thought about the ways in which my students have really shaped me. And, you know, even though I may have the title of teacher in the classroom, I mean, I learn just as much, from them every single day. And so when I think about writing this book for my students, I think about all the students that other teachers also have and how they might benefit from having their teachers do some of the work that I suggest and get free, to do the kind of self-reflective anti-bias instructional practices that I think my early career. Tricia, you know, teacher days could have really benefited from. So I think I’m just trying to help students presently in classrooms and in the future, whether they’re in my specific classroom or not, have a different kind of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You probably get this a lot, Tricia. Whenever we broach the topic of bias, it’s a common response for anyone to get defensive. Can you explain to us, what is bias?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So bias is something that I would teach in my classroom, actually. And I would sort of define it really from more of a sort of the cognitive science viewpoint, which is to say that we all have biases. They are neither good nor bad. They’re like mental shortcuts that we have. So, you know, when you think about, you know, I’m sitting here right now speaking with you, and there are lots of different stimuli that are coming at me. Right. I can think about the way in which, like, I’m sitting in the seats. I can think about the the air in the room. I can think about the noises down the hallway. All these different things are coming at me at once. And what our brain needs to do is to sort of focus. And we have these biases, these sort of like mental shortcuts that help us to understand what is what we need to focus on in the particular moment. And that’s what our brain likes to do. It takes a shortcut to get there. Now, sometimes these biases can lead us to faulty conclusions, but other times it can also be things that, you know, save our lives, right? I mean, I don’t need to stop and do slow thinking when it comes to seeing like a, you know, like a large animal approaching me. Right? Like that. I know immediately my instinct takes over. But when we think about all the different decisions that educators make at any given time and during the day, I think researchers heads anywhere. I’ve seen everything cited from like a few hundred to even like a thousand decisions in a day. We don’t stop to think about them. You know, we don’t carefully weigh every single one, and we don’t let all the different stimuli, like, affect us. We we, you know, we have to rely on a mental shortcut. And I think that, when we think about bias, we have to think about the ways in which those biases are impacting us and informing our decision making, sometimes in potentially harmful ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And in the first chapter of your book, you outlined five biases that educators in particular are engaging in. Can you describe those?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> One bias is the curse of knowledge. And this bias basically is that, you know, the more that we we’re sort of coerced by knowledge in the sense that once I learn how to do a specific skill or acquire a specific set of knowledge, we start to sort of lose the ability to appreciate what it is like to learn that skill or acquire that knowledge for the first time. So the example that I gave in the book is that, you know, when I was first teaching, I thought my students were absolutely brilliant and they absolutely were too. I mean, I was the first time I was teaching any of the books that I had taught that first my, you know, back in the early 2000. And every idea that they offered me was I just thought was absolutely brilliant because I had never heard them before. And as many English teachers know, you often, teach the same books over and over and over again. And what happens over the years is that you, as the educator, acquire knowledge. From your students and from your own work. You know, when you read a book, you know however many times and discuss it like five times a day? With students, you realize that in some ways, there’s only so much that can be said about a Booker. But over the years, the ideas that students were sharing in class, their interpretations, it became more rare for these interpretations to be or from my perspective, to seem new, really, because I had sort of heard everything before. And so, this curse of knowledge actually made it sort of in some ways harder for me to appreciate the ways in which my kids were bringing what was, for them, new knowledge and really original knowledge. And instead I was looking at it more from, you know, well, of course they would know that. Right. So that’s one, you know, simple thing, but I think is something that, changes the way that we interact with kids. So one of the things that I did is, I would always find opportunities to read something, new with students to put myself in a learning stance with them. So I wasn’t always relying on all the knowledge I had acquired over years, and sort of unfairly judging them on what they weren’t bringing to a text.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Tricia, I want to acknowledge for our listeners that recess is obviously in session. Good to hear that you’re a real life educator. Now let’s get back to the second bias you unpack in your book, Nostalgia Bias.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> If you’ve been a classroom teacher for any number of years, you I’m sure you have heard seasoned teachers in a, department room say things like, well, kids these days or, you know, kids used to be able to do X, Y, or Z. But unfortunately, you know, those that kind of thinking and that kind of, you know, judgment on kids isn’t really isn’t really healthy. It’s based on this idea that kids were somehow better in the past. And I think this can be especially hard or problematic when we think about the ways in which our student population is changing all around the country. If we have sort of these rosy colored glasses about what kids used to be able to do and unfairly start judging the kids in front of us, especially kids who may be coming, you know, if your classroom is become more diverse and you have a view of what kids used to be able to do before and and now you’re looking at kids and you’re thinking, oh, well, you know, they don’t have all the same skills, or now they’re always on their phones, or now they’re doing this and that. You know, that’s a bias that we also need to be aware of. Because the truth is, there are some things about kids that have just always remain the same. My kids are kids at the end of the day. So the nostalgia bias and when I unpack how that can get in our way, another bias that I talk about in the first chapter is the anchoring bias. And the anchoring bias is really interesting. In fact, it’s this bias that, happens when we are anchored to the initial information we receive about something. So the anchoring bias, when I think about it in schools, I think about the beginning of the school year and how at the beginning of the school year, we might be anchored to information about a student or students or groups of students, that then disproportionately affect or inform the way we see those students from as the year goes on. One clear example of this is, you know, like, I used to do this thing where we would go around and share, class list with previous with teachers who had taught this class the year before, and teachers would look at the list and we’d have all sorts of reactions like, oh, watch out for this kid or this student does X, Y, or Z, or this one’s really great, right? They we give feedback of to something that we very we were being helpful to our colleagues. And after, you know, it didn’t take long for me to start to realize that, you know, this information more often than not did more harm than good, because I would start to question in what ways this information, especially if it was negative information, unfairly inform the way I might be treating students or thinking about students. And I think that’s really hard. I think kids, especially at the beginning of the school year, we all deserve a chance to sort of start anew and have second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth chances and to have that kind of feedback, especially if it’s negative, follow kids around and potentially anchor to future teachers experiences of them to that particular like view. I think it’s just unfair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Okay, Tricia, you’ve covered three biases. What’s another bias you’ve seen in classrooms that if address can help students learn?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Another one of course, is in-group bias, which, you know, again, this this is none of these things are like necessarily groundbreaking. But when you start to think about the ways in which they might just be impacting our relationships with kids, it can be negative. So in-group bias just occurs when we show preference for those who are similar to us. Period. Right. It’s very natural to do like I. Have to admit, like I have a bias or I had a bias for many years in my teaching for kids who were very similar to who I was when I was a student, and so I was very quiet as a student. You know, I would be horrified if if a teacher called on me without, you know, without me raising my hand. So I have, you know, I have a sort of special place when I look in my classroom for the kids who might also be sensitive to that. So you might have favoritism towards or give the benefit of the doubt to kids who are more similar to you. And I think it’s important for teachers to sort of keep track of that range, to do that self-reflective work around, like, what are my identities, what makes me who I am, what are my relationships like with kids in the class is, you know, I might get along with certain kids or I might treat certain students favorably or unfavorably, depending on, I might say that it’s because of their work or the way they’re showing up. But let me actually think for a moment and step back and say, well, is there something else that could be potentially driving this? And one question that I ask in that chapter is, you know, when we think about the kids, maybe that we don’t have as strong of a relationship to, to what extent might that be? Because they are the ones who are also least like us, right? Or kids who are considered quote unquote troublemakers in school. You know, to what extent are those kids who are least like the ideal student in class?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Tricia, you’ve talked about four biases. Let’s review them real quick. The bias of knowledge, nostalgia bias, the anchoring bias and ingroup bias. What’s the last bias you write about in your book?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> The last bias that I discussed in chapter one is the just world hypothesis, which I think is one that, you know, the term I don’t think people might. People might not be as familiar with, but it’s basically this idea that, you know, we believe that the world is an inherently just place, that what goes around comes around. Right? Like, if I do this, then I get that if I work hard, then I will get good grades. That’s the sort of very oversimplified equation of the just world hypothesis that you get what you deserve. And I just think about how so much of our school system is built around this idea, like meritocracy, right? This idea that, like you, you get what you deserve. And therefore if you do well, then good things will happen to you. But then the other side of that is that if you’re not doing well, then somehow you deserved that rain. And I think too often we might, ignore or overlook the ways in which people, circumstances and different systems of oppression or unfairness and barriers might actually get in the way. So that bias is something that I, I really try to unpack a bit in the first chapter to have teachers really sort of think about that, because once you know about that bias, you start hearing teachers, you start hearing the assumption of that bias in the conversations we tend to have with kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Knowing these five biases that you unpacked. How does that connect to helping students become stronger readers, writers, and thinkers? Can you make that connection?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Sure. So I think the longer that I taught and the longer that I teach, the more I realize that without having a strong anti-bias lens, like it’s really hard to be a critical thinker, right? Because when we think about being a strong reader, writer or thinker, I mean, we think about how we absorb a text, how we read and respond to different texts. And that text can be, you know, the book where the reading in class, it could be a video that we’re watching. It could even be outside of school. And I’m just watching television, or I’m watching the news, or I’m scrolling my social media feeds, and we all have responses and reactions in the moment. And I think it’s important for kids to be able to stop and reflect for a moment and think, okay, where is that response coming from? Like, if I see something and it makes me very upset, if I see something that I profoundly disagree with, I might say, okay, well, this is because I have these values. This is because I have this evidence. This is because x, y, or z. But I think it’s important to take a step back and say, how have I been socialized to have this reaction? Because biases at the end of the day are also things that we’ve been socialized to, embody.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> One thing I hear from anyone pushing for liberation or anti-bias is to reframe the narrative, you know, and the tools you’re talking about for students, sounds like also helps with this reframing of the narrative. That so much of what students are taught are about, you know, the worst things that can happen to people, especially if they’re not white. And I think for teens in particular, you know, who are emotional and developing, there’s this tendency to catastrophize, you know, to kind of dwell on those worst things. And, you know, with this mental health crisis that. Is pretty widespread in this country. You know, and all the media that we consume that has a lot of those worse things. How does thinking beyond the worst thing help students reframe and possibly get a more accurate, hopeful version of themselves?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia\u003c/strong>: Yeah. Thanks for, raising that. In the book, I talk about, you know, one of the books that I used to teach with my students was, Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson in that book. There’s a wonderful quote where in the very beginning that almost every time I taught it, kids would always tell me that that was one of their favorite passages. And it was really about how we are. We are more than the worst thing that we’ve ever done. Right before I start teaching that book, though, I pose a question to kids and I asked them, you know, to write down like a list of, you know, things that they’re really proud of, things that make them who they are. You know, like the it’s like the resume lists, you know, all the sense of accomplishments and all the things you want people to know about you. And then I also asked them to write about a time that they didn’t show up as their best selves, where they had an argument with a friend. Maybe they lied. Maybe they were mean spirited, like all the worst. Like, think about the worst things, the the worst version of themselves. And we that’s the thing. We all have a worst version of ourselves, right? And they write that down. And so then I, then I ask them like, well, what’s the truth? Like is the list of all the positive things about yourself, the truth? What about the list of all the negative things or your worst version of yourself? Where’s the truth here, right? You know, and I’m speaking just in binaries right here, just for the, you know, the point of the exercise. But both of these lists are true, right? These are all things about us. But together they form a more complete picture. And even then, there’s a lot that’s in between these two things, right? Between the very best and then the catastrophe of who we are. Right. So there’s a whole middle section. Right. And so when we’re doing this writing and we’re thinking about this work and we’re thinking about, how we’re interpreting the things that we’re reading or we’re absorbing the way, the news that we’re seeing, it’s one of those exercises that I do with kids to help them see that there can never really be like, I like that idea of a single story, that we have to constantly seek multiple perspectives to have grace for ourselves. When we think about mental health, I think, you know, developmentally, kids are really trying to figure out who they are, and they think that this one thing is defining for them. And, you know, I think the work that we do as educators is help kids see that no one thing can define who they are, that they are beautiful, messy, complex human beings with so much in between and so many contradictions. And if they can have that kind of grace for themselves, which is so important, that sort of self-love, then I think that we have a better shot of being able to have that grace and that love for other people. If I can think to myself, okay, I’m a messy person and I have contradictions and I say things or do things that sometimes I’m not, I’m not proud of, how can I afford that to the person? How can I afford that kind of grace and flexibility of thinking to the person who’s now sitting across from me? And maybe we disagree on things, but I still see them as a complex person who is worthy of dignity. Right? So that complexity, I think, allows us in that complexity that allows us the grace to see ourselves in more humane ways and to see others the same way, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And who doesn’t want that for students and educators?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Tricia Ebarvia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tricia Ebarvia:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/mindshift/63160/5-cognitive-biases-that-shape-classroom-interactions-and-how-to-overcome-them","authors":["4596"],"categories":["mindshift_21130","mindshift_193"],"tags":["mindshift_21319","mindshift_21899","mindshift_21322","mindshift_20818","mindshift_21645","mindshift_21015","mindshift_21317"],"featImg":"mindshift_63162","label":"mindshift"},"mindshift_62934":{"type":"posts","id":"mindshift_62934","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"mindshift","id":"62934","score":null,"sort":[1704798057000]},"parent":0,"labelTerm":{"site":"mindshift"},"blocks":[],"publishDate":1704798057,"format":"audio","title":"Bettina Love examines the impact of education policies on Black students and what we can do next","headTitle":"Bettina Love examines the impact of education policies on Black students and what we can do next | KQED","content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zook, a high schooler in Rochester, NY in the 1990s, found her dreams of competing in city and state basketball competitions shattered when allegations of class-skipping led to the school revoke the team’s game record. In her frustration, Zook punched a teacher and was expelled. However, according to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/BLoveSoulPower\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bettina Love\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a professor at Columbia University Teachers College, Zook’s outburst was a culmination of years of neglect and mistreatment within the education system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“She doesn’t really punch a teacher for that particular incident. It [was for] all incidents: going through school for the last 13 years and not having one teacher tell her that she was bright, not having one teacher take any type of care, having a teacher in middle school body slam her to the ground and put her in a chokehold,” recounted Love, who played basketball with Zook and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duWxVlrFhpc\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">looked up to her teammate and friend\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zook’s experience was the impetus for Love’s book, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250280381/punishedfordreaming\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Punished for Dreaming: How School Reform Harms Black Children and How We Heal\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, about the adverse effects of 40 years of education reform on Black students. Love highlights the experiences of many Black students, like Zook, navigating a flawed system. “I thought it was important to use real people’s lives to talk about school reform,” said Love, who, as an \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://snfpaideia.upenn.edu/abolitionist-teaching-and-learning-with-bettina-l-love/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">abolitionist educator\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, believes schools must undergo structural changes in order to serve all students. Throughout the book, she outlines solutions at the teacher, administrator and policy levels. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The decline of “a glorious era in Black education”\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/brown-v-board-of-education\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was a landmark Supreme Court decision that marked the end of the “separate, but equal” precedent for segregated schools. While celebrated as a civil rights victory, Love argues that it also marked the decline of a glorious era in Black education. Before the historic ruling, there were over \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249682316_UnIntended_Consequences\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">80,000 Black educators teaching about 2 million Black children\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Not only were Black teachers teaching, they were highly credentialed, highly certified and were amazing,” said Love. After Brown v. Board, over \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://newprairiepress.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1085&context=ojrrp\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">38,000 Black educators lost their jobs.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The relationships and curriculum they cultivated were lost. “If you understand how racism works and how anti-blackness works, understanding how the gutting of Brown happened is not really hard,” said Love. “If I did not want my child to sit next to a Black child, I’m certainly not going to let a Black teacher teach them,” said Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As the 70th anniversary of Brown v. Board approaches, \u003ca href=\"https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/education/k-12-schools/maryland-black-teachers-YARRTE6ALRDCXNOXQHKOHLW3SI/\">the numbers of Black educators remain low\u003c/a>, with Black teachers making up nearly 6% of the teaching workforce, according to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2022/2022113.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">a federal survey\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> of the 2020-2021 school year. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.3102/0013189X16671718\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Research\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> shows that students of all races tend to view Black teachers more positively than white teachers. “It has been a loss not only for Black students, but really all students,” explained Love. “Brown was really the impetus that started the destruction of Black education in this country.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Reagan-era shifts in education\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ronald Reagan’s presidency in the 1980s brought about lasting changes to education, including significant cuts to funding. A report commissioned by his administration, “\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.reaganfoundation.org/media/130020/a-nation-at-risk-report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Nation at Risk: The Imperative for Educational Reform\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,” said that US students were being out-performed and that educational standards were declining and led to policy shifts such as increased emphasis on standardized testing and enforcement of stringent graduation requirements. “This probably is one of the most consequential education reports of our time,” said Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another report, “\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/1984/01/01/us/reagan-expected-to-present-plan-to-fight-crime-in-public-schools.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chaos in the Classroom: Enemy of American Education\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,” said many students were victims of crimes at schools and schools needed better discipline practices. According to Love, this report laid the groundwork for the introduction of police officers in schools. “You start to see how education reform and crime reform begin to converge,” said Love. “Reagan was really the linchpin of merging education reform with crime reform.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love and others have critiqued these reports, pointing out alarmist language and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.upi.com/Archives/1984/01/25/Reagan-administration-rejects-criticism-of-school-violence-report/2979443854800/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">misleading data\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. For example, at the time that “A Nation at Risk” was published, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/29/604986823/what-a-nation-at-risk-got-wrong-and-right-about-u-s-schools\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">more students than ever were graduating\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> high school and attending college. Love added that even if the report was an accurate representation of the educational landscape, harsher discipline could not achieve the desired results. “The solutions were never going to get us towards any type of educational justice or higher test scores,” she said. “[The solutions] were just punitive and anti-Black to the core.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Strategies for overcoming challenges in education\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite the critical need for funding, Love noted that Black schools receive less funding on average than predominantly white schools. She also pointed out that teachers’ compensation has not kept pace with other professions. Recent data shows \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.edweek.org/leadership/to-make-ends-meet-1-in-5-teachers-have-second-jobs/2018/06\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1 in 5 teachers moonlight\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and that teachers spend anywhere from\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/why-are-educators-still-buying-their-own-school-supplies#:~:text=Key%20Takeaways,supplies%20increased%20almost%2024%20percent.\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> $500 to $1000 dollars a year\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> on their own supplies. Love said that teachers across t\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">he country are not only \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11948465/oakland-teachers-to-go-on-strike-thursday-amid-deadlock-with-district\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">going on strike to get higher pay\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, but also fo\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">r essentials like \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/03/14/1086125626/school-air-quality\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">better air quality\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> in their schools and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/health-and-medicine/article279354719.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">clean water\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. However, both Republicans and Democrats \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.chalkbeat.org/2022/3/9/22969172/title-i-biden-budget-deal/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">rejected\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> President Joe Biden’s \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/joe-bidens-education-plan-triple-title-i-to-boost-teacher-pay-and-student-supports/2019/05\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">plan to triple Title 1 funding\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> which would have tripled per pupil spending. “We actually need politicians who are going to actually fight for teachers, fight for parents, fight for students and understand historical inequalities,” said Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Acknowledging the dramatic influence of education policies on Black lives, Love suggested reparations as a form of compensation for the harm done. “Another word for reparations is repair,” she said. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/reparations\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California is the only state so far that has put action behind the idea of reparations\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Love advocates for monetary compensation to Black individuals. “It’s a check to say we have done harm to you, your family, your community, and it has changed the course of your life. And we want to start to repair,” said Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are divided on whether reparations are the right thing to do. “If you can’t see black folks as beautiful and worthy, then reparations [will be] hard for you,” said Love. “If folks know what we’ve done and what we continue to do and you see how this country has treated us, then you understand why reparations are important.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the face of systemic challenges, Love encouraged teachers to prioritize personal care through activities such as yoga, meditation and therapy. “We need teachers well in the classroom,” said Love. “We got to be well to show up for our kids when we know we are teaching in a system that is proliferating their destruction.” She said that administrators can help teachers take care of themselves by limiting superfluous work so that teachers can do what they need to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love also emphasized the importance of treating children as children, noting that often Black and Brown children are treated \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://open.bu.edu/handle/2144/35596\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">– and even punished – like adults\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. She said that sometimes educators can have outsized reactions to things that are developmentally appropriate for kids. “They’re going to get on your nerves. You’ll tell them not to touch something and they’re going to touch it,” Love said. “We have to get back as a culture to seeing children and treating children and protecting children as children. If we did that, our policies would follow that. Our books, our classroom rules, all those things would follow.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2522512170&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, the podcast where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>As caregivers and educators, we’re likely used to interacting with schools in the day to day sense. It’s easy to forget that our experiences of school today are built on decades of history. And that’s what I’m here to talk to Dr. Bettina Love about. She’s a professor at Teachers College in Columbia University.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Her recently released book, \u003cem>Punished for Dreaming\u003c/em>, explores the disproportionate impact of education policies on Black students. If you’ve ever wondered why certain issues in education persist, Bettina might be able to give you some answers. My conversation with one of our favorite abolitionist educators, Bettina Love is up after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>I’m going to start at the top of your book. There’s a story that you share about Zook in \u003cem>Punished For Dreaming\u003c/em>. Can you tell me about how her experience shows the impact of educational policies on individual lives? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I thought it was important to really talk and use real people’s lives to talk about school reform. Zook is not only just a person in the book, but she’s one of my dearest, closest friends, and I was able to really understand how school policy impacts a person through Zook. And so Zook is a high school basketball star. She can do almost anything with a basketball. We are on our way to winning city and state. And then there’s this report or this allegation that Zook and some other male athletes are not going to class, they’re not attending class, and all our games are taken away. And then at the disciplinary hearing, Zook doesn’t have anybody there in her corner and she punches a teacher, but she doesn’t really punch a teacher for that particular incident. It’s all the incidents. It’s going through school for the last 13 years and not having one teacher tell her that she was bright, not having one teacher take any type of care, having a teacher in middle school body slam her to the ground and put her in a chokehold, 13 years of harm. And the book really opens with her story because it was a cautionary tale for me because I saw how you could be a superstar, you could score a lot of points, everybody could love you, but if you do something that people feel is so-called criminal, then you are punished for it in American schools. And she was really the impetus for this book. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love: \u003c/strong>And so the book really wants us to put education in the same conversation as crime reform and welfare reform and immigration reform, like all these reform policies that we know historically have been hurtful to people of color. We don’t think about education reform like that. So it’s really trying to use people’s stories to go through the last 40 years of education reform and tell the story about what happened to us as Black people through education. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Let’s take a look at Brown v Board of Education. I’m thinking about me as a kid in Walnut Creek, California, in public school, learning about Brown v Board. And I was taught that it was definitely a good thing with no downsides. Most people don’t know about the harm that it caused. Can you talk about how it shaped the trajectory of public education, specifically for Black students? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> It is probably one of the most consequential cases in the last 70, 80 years when it comes to education, that we don’t talk enough about. So it was really important in this book for me to talk about what we had before. Brown. Now, there is a glorious time in Black education before \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/brown-v-board-of-education\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brown versus Board of Education\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Not only were Black teachers teaching, they were highly credentialed, they were teaching students to their highest potential. Black teachers made up 30 to 50% of teachers in the segregated South. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> We had upwards to around \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">90,000 black educators teaching about 2 million Black children\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, with almost 89% of them being Black women. So Brown pretty much guts black education. And so then we see almost 38,000 Black educators fired. Black teachers are pretty much out of the profession through policy, through reform. And here we are, you know, 70 years after Brown and in the last \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">40 years, black teachers have not made up words of 10% of teachers\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Black male teachers are\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> less than 2% of teachers, and black women are anywhere from 6 to 8%.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All students benefit from teachers of color. And so it has been a disastrous loss not only for Black students, but really all students. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That’s really important because it’s not that Black teachers aren’t qualified. It’s not that they don’t want to teach. It’s that they were pushed out of teaching positions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Right. And I want to be very clear, it’s not that white teachers can’t teach Black students. That’s not what we’re arguing. What we’re arguing is that 88% of the teaching force can’t be white. You need diversity, you need diversity of thought, a diversity of ideas. You need to at least have through your 13 years of schooling someone who looks like you and talks like you and understands you and sees you. It’s important. Representation is important. Your culture is important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Moving forward in history. I want to discuss the Reagan presidency and what you call the war on Black children. Can you voice over some key policies and shifts during this time and also the repercussions those had in education? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Reagan was not very fond of the very ideas of public education. He was also not very fond of the government paying for public education. Reagan takes office 1982, he declares a war on drugs. 1983, Reagan releases another report. This probably is one of the most consequential education reports of our time, which is \u003cem>A Nation At Risk\u003c/em>.\u003cem> A Nation At Risk\u003c/em> says that this country, the United States of America, is failing behind most Western countries and that our education system is failing so badly that, you know, it could cause a war. This is just language of just fear mongering. By 1984, a year later, Reagan comes out with a report called\u003cem> Chaos in the Classroom\u003c/em>, which says these children are so rude and disorderly, We need police in schools. That’s 82, 83, 84. Just those few entry points, you start to see how education reform and crime reform begin to emerge. We start to see this language that is extremely punitive, not only in crime reform, but it becomes punitive and education reform. Reagan was really the linchpin, really the start, the spark, of us really merging education reform with crime reform. And every situation that I just talked about from the war on drugs,\u003cem> A Nation At Risk\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Chaos In The Classroom\u003c/em>, the data was always flawed. These reform efforts and these policies were not created with data that actually was factual. Much of the data was misleading. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> With such alarmist titles, too. I feel like that’s the first giveaway. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Chaos in the classroom! Like where? And, you know, and I think what people need to be clear about is that let’s say the data was correct. Okay? Let’s just say the data wasn’t misleading. Okay. If that’s what’s happening, the solution should not be: be punitive. The solution should have been, well, we need to hire more teachers. We need to pay teachers a living wage. We need to have smaller classrooms. Why is the solution “we need more police.” How has that got anything to do with the low test score that you’re talking about? Those things don’t go hand in hand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Given this historical context, I feel like at this point we’re sitting on a pile of punitive reform ideas. What does the educational landscape look like for Black students in particular, and what are some of the challenges Black students are facing because of these policies? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, I think many people would say, you know, the critical race theory bans the book bans. And those are serious things we have to be talking about. But I also want us to understand that in 2016, there was a report by Ed Bilder. And Ed Bilder came out and said that white schools in this country receive $23 billion more funding than nonwhite schools. We also know that students who need the most in this country get the least experienced teachers. 1 in 5 teachers, moonlight. Teachers around the country are deeply underpaid. We’ve seen teacher strikes all over the country last year, and I’m sure there’s going to be many more this year. Our schools have air pollutants in them that children can’t breathe. Our schools are talking about an achievement gap. We need babies in schools with clean air and clean water and credentialed teachers. We need schools where children can walk in and feel a sense of pride. And we also need schools where they can learn about themselves and the beauty of their history and who they are. Education, Right. Not right now. When you put all of that in context, it’s pretty dire. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> What I’m hearing in your answer is that a lot needs to happen on many different scales. What should we be looking at as far as – I mean, I’m scared to say policy reform at this point – but what should we be looking at on a national level? What needs to be done to address some of the issues that you outlined? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> A child in this country per pupil rate is like between 12 or $14,000. Like that’s what we get per pupil. Joe Biden is running and saying, listen, we need to increase Title one funding, per pupil funding by three times. So like making every child, particularly in low income schools, low income communities, you know, $30,000. Not only was that struck down, but it was struck down by the Democrats, too. Folks who say they are about justice and equity and equality are shooting down these type of policies. We got to be clear that there has been no party that essentially has been the party of education, has done some type of educational justice, liberation, thoughtful equality work. We actually need politicians who are going to actually fight for teachers, fight for parents, fight for students, understand inequality, understand historical inequalities, fight for funding, fight for resources. You cannot simply say that you’re going to hold education and teachers to these policies, to these laws, and then don’t have anything in the background to say how they’re going to support you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In your book, you make a case for reparations. Can you clarify what that means first for people who might be new to this concept and also what it might look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, I thought it was really important to try and write about something bold. So what I argue in this book is that if you look at the current education system just by generation, the last 40 years, harm has been done. The way Black students have been police and tested, expelled, funded, you have changed the trajectory of my life through education. Another word for reparations is repair. So how do you begin to repair this system? And the fullness of reparations is to end harm, is to atone for harm, is to start to think structurally how we say, “Hey, we did this. We know we did this. We’re apologizing because we did this. We’re compensating you because we did this. We’re going to end these policies that have done harm to you.” If you can’t see Black folks as beautiful and worthy, then reparations is hard for you. If you know who we are and you know our history and what we’ve done and what we continue to do and you see how this country has treated us even as we have kept creating and loving and inventing, then you will understand why reparations is important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Shifting the focus to educators and administrators. What actions can they take to make their classrooms more equitable and inclusive for black students? And I also want to acknowledge that I think it’s really hard to think about what to do at the teacher level when so much is happening at the policy level or so much isn’t happening at the policy level. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> I think the one thing teachers have to do on a very personal level is just take care of themselves. Drink your water, meditate, exercise. Do some yoga if you can. Find some time to really care about your wellbeing and yourself. Because we need teachers not only in the classroom. We need teachers well in the classroom. Right. Go to therapy, Indigenous practices, like we got to be well to show up for our kids when we know we are teaching in a system that is proliferating their destruction. So that is a really hard thing to show up every day, knowing that there are so many systems and structures and rules and policies and tests that are hurtful. Administrators have a lot of power too. So we need administrators to really understand what is necessary for a teacher and move that busy work to the side, so they can actually do what they need to do. But I would say the biggest thing that teachers and administrators can do tomorrow is remember that you have children in front of you. And what we see now is that seven year olds and five year olds and 15 year olds are treated, particularly if they’re Black and brown like adults. We got to remember that these are actual children. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I love that double pronged approach. It’s like, number one, if this meeting could be an email, make it an email. And number two, let kids be kids. My last question for you is what is your vision for the future of education in America? What do you hope to see in the years to come? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> What I would hope to see in the years to come is that the folks who say they are truly concerned about education, make the policies, make the laws would actually ask Gholdy Muhammad, Dena Simmons, Yolanda Sealy Ruiz, Gloria Ladson Billings, Cynthia Dillard, Adrian Dixon. Like, I would really like them to understand that there is a profound piece of knowledge – Linda Darling-Hammond – there’s a profound piece of knowledge – Pedro Negara. Like we can go on and on and on about these educational giants. There’s folks who have answers and solutions. Pick up our writings, ask us a question. We would like to be in these conversations. We got years of data, experience and knowledge. And so that’s what I would really want to see. I would want to see the folks who have invested their careers and their time and have done this work really be the ones who are asked, charged with doing the educational work, the folks in the communities and the parents and the aunties and the grandmas who have knowledge. I would love to see us actually ask a question. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Oh, I love that. I want whatever new policy that comes out to be: Please ask Goldie Muhammad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Ask Goldie Muhammad. Right. There are just people who we know are amazing black educators, scholars doing this work. So I would love for them to be able to create policy on a federal level. These folks know what they’re talking about, know what they’re doing. Never called. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I think MindShift’s audience is really going to appreciate the reading list you just gave them. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. I’m glad we had this opportunity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Bettina Love’s book is called Punished for Dreaming. MindShift will have more minisodes coming down the pipeline to bring you ideas and innovations from experts in education and beyond. Don’t forget to hit follow on your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss a thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If you like what you heard in this episode, I have recommendations for you. We did an episode with Micia Mosley about why every student deserves a black teacher. We’ve also done two episodes with Gholdy Muhammad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Ask Goldie Muhammad!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The MindShift team includes me, Nimah Gobir, Ki Sung, Kara Newhouse and Marlena Jackson Retondo. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. We receive additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana and Holly Kernan. MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. Thank you for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n","stats":{"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"hasAudio":true,"hasPolis":false,"wordCount":4399,"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"paragraphCount":53},"modified":1704816769,"excerpt":"After Brown v. Board of Education, over 38,000 Black educators lost their jobs. That transformation, along with other policies that followed have had long-lasting consequences for Black children. Bettina Love, Columbia University professor and abolitionist educator, discusses these topics in her book, \"Punished for Dreaming.\"","headData":{"twImgId":"","twTitle":"","ogTitle":"","ogImgId":"","twDescription":"","description":"After Brown v. Board, over 38,000 Black educators lost their jobs. That change, along with other policies, have had long-lasting effects on Black children.","socialDescription":"After Brown v. Board, over 38,000 Black educators lost their jobs. That change, along with other policies, have had long-lasting effects on Black children.","title":"Bettina Love examines the impact of education policies on Black students and what we can do next | KQED","ogDescription":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"Article","headline":"Bettina Love examines the impact of education policies on Black students and what we can do next","datePublished":"2024-01-09T03:00:57-08:00","dateModified":"2024-01-09T08:12:49-08:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"bettina-love-examines-the-impact-of-education-policies-on-black-students-and-what-we-can-do-next","status":"publish","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC2522512170.mp3?updated=1704737099","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","sticky":false,"articleAge":"0","path":"/mindshift/62934/bettina-love-examines-the-impact-of-education-policies-on-black-students-and-what-we-can-do-next","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zook, a high schooler in Rochester, NY in the 1990s, found her dreams of competing in city and state basketball competitions shattered when allegations of class-skipping led to the school revoke the team’s game record. In her frustration, Zook punched a teacher and was expelled. However, according to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/BLoveSoulPower\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bettina Love\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a professor at Columbia University Teachers College, Zook’s outburst was a culmination of years of neglect and mistreatment within the education system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“She doesn’t really punch a teacher for that particular incident. It [was for] all incidents: going through school for the last 13 years and not having one teacher tell her that she was bright, not having one teacher take any type of care, having a teacher in middle school body slam her to the ground and put her in a chokehold,” recounted Love, who played basketball with Zook and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duWxVlrFhpc\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">looked up to her teammate and friend\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zook’s experience was the impetus for Love’s book, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250280381/punishedfordreaming\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Punished for Dreaming: How School Reform Harms Black Children and How We Heal\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, about the adverse effects of 40 years of education reform on Black students. Love highlights the experiences of many Black students, like Zook, navigating a flawed system. “I thought it was important to use real people’s lives to talk about school reform,” said Love, who, as an \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://snfpaideia.upenn.edu/abolitionist-teaching-and-learning-with-bettina-l-love/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">abolitionist educator\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, believes schools must undergo structural changes in order to serve all students. Throughout the book, she outlines solutions at the teacher, administrator and policy levels. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The decline of “a glorious era in Black education”\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/brown-v-board-of-education\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was a landmark Supreme Court decision that marked the end of the “separate, but equal” precedent for segregated schools. While celebrated as a civil rights victory, Love argues that it also marked the decline of a glorious era in Black education. Before the historic ruling, there were over \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249682316_UnIntended_Consequences\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">80,000 Black educators teaching about 2 million Black children\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Not only were Black teachers teaching, they were highly credentialed, highly certified and were amazing,” said Love. After Brown v. Board, over \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://newprairiepress.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1085&context=ojrrp\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">38,000 Black educators lost their jobs.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The relationships and curriculum they cultivated were lost. “If you understand how racism works and how anti-blackness works, understanding how the gutting of Brown happened is not really hard,” said Love. “If I did not want my child to sit next to a Black child, I’m certainly not going to let a Black teacher teach them,” said Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As the 70th anniversary of Brown v. Board approaches, \u003ca href=\"https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/education/k-12-schools/maryland-black-teachers-YARRTE6ALRDCXNOXQHKOHLW3SI/\">the numbers of Black educators remain low\u003c/a>, with Black teachers making up nearly 6% of the teaching workforce, according to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2022/2022113.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">a federal survey\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> of the 2020-2021 school year. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.3102/0013189X16671718\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Research\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> shows that students of all races tend to view Black teachers more positively than white teachers. “It has been a loss not only for Black students, but really all students,” explained Love. “Brown was really the impetus that started the destruction of Black education in this country.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Reagan-era shifts in education\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ronald Reagan’s presidency in the 1980s brought about lasting changes to education, including significant cuts to funding. A report commissioned by his administration, “\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.reaganfoundation.org/media/130020/a-nation-at-risk-report.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Nation at Risk: The Imperative for Educational Reform\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,” said that US students were being out-performed and that educational standards were declining and led to policy shifts such as increased emphasis on standardized testing and enforcement of stringent graduation requirements. “This probably is one of the most consequential education reports of our time,” said Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another report, “\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/1984/01/01/us/reagan-expected-to-present-plan-to-fight-crime-in-public-schools.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chaos in the Classroom: Enemy of American Education\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,” said many students were victims of crimes at schools and schools needed better discipline practices. According to Love, this report laid the groundwork for the introduction of police officers in schools. “You start to see how education reform and crime reform begin to converge,” said Love. “Reagan was really the linchpin of merging education reform with crime reform.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love and others have critiqued these reports, pointing out alarmist language and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.upi.com/Archives/1984/01/25/Reagan-administration-rejects-criticism-of-school-violence-report/2979443854800/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">misleading data\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. For example, at the time that “A Nation at Risk” was published, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/29/604986823/what-a-nation-at-risk-got-wrong-and-right-about-u-s-schools\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">more students than ever were graduating\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> high school and attending college. Love added that even if the report was an accurate representation of the educational landscape, harsher discipline could not achieve the desired results. “The solutions were never going to get us towards any type of educational justice or higher test scores,” she said. “[The solutions] were just punitive and anti-Black to the core.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Strategies for overcoming challenges in education\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite the critical need for funding, Love noted that Black schools receive less funding on average than predominantly white schools. She also pointed out that teachers’ compensation has not kept pace with other professions. Recent data shows \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.edweek.org/leadership/to-make-ends-meet-1-in-5-teachers-have-second-jobs/2018/06\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1 in 5 teachers moonlight\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and that teachers spend anywhere from\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/why-are-educators-still-buying-their-own-school-supplies#:~:text=Key%20Takeaways,supplies%20increased%20almost%2024%20percent.\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> $500 to $1000 dollars a year\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> on their own supplies. Love said that teachers across t\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">he country are not only \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11948465/oakland-teachers-to-go-on-strike-thursday-amid-deadlock-with-district\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">going on strike to get higher pay\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, but also fo\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">r essentials like \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/03/14/1086125626/school-air-quality\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">better air quality\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> in their schools and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/health-and-medicine/article279354719.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">clean water\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. However, both Republicans and Democrats \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.chalkbeat.org/2022/3/9/22969172/title-i-biden-budget-deal/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">rejected\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> President Joe Biden’s \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/joe-bidens-education-plan-triple-title-i-to-boost-teacher-pay-and-student-supports/2019/05\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">plan to triple Title 1 funding\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> which would have tripled per pupil spending. “We actually need politicians who are going to actually fight for teachers, fight for parents, fight for students and understand historical inequalities,” said Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Acknowledging the dramatic influence of education policies on Black lives, Love suggested reparations as a form of compensation for the harm done. “Another word for reparations is repair,” she said. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/reparations\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California is the only state so far that has put action behind the idea of reparations\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Love advocates for monetary compensation to Black individuals. “It’s a check to say we have done harm to you, your family, your community, and it has changed the course of your life. And we want to start to repair,” said Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are divided on whether reparations are the right thing to do. “If you can’t see black folks as beautiful and worthy, then reparations [will be] hard for you,” said Love. “If folks know what we’ve done and what we continue to do and you see how this country has treated us, then you understand why reparations are important.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the face of systemic challenges, Love encouraged teachers to prioritize personal care through activities such as yoga, meditation and therapy. “We need teachers well in the classroom,” said Love. “We got to be well to show up for our kids when we know we are teaching in a system that is proliferating their destruction.” She said that administrators can help teachers take care of themselves by limiting superfluous work so that teachers can do what they need to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love also emphasized the importance of treating children as children, noting that often Black and Brown children are treated \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://open.bu.edu/handle/2144/35596\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">– and even punished – like adults\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. She said that sometimes educators can have outsized reactions to things that are developmentally appropriate for kids. “They’re going to get on your nerves. You’ll tell them not to touch something and they’re going to touch it,” Love said. “We have to get back as a culture to seeing children and treating children and protecting children as children. If we did that, our policies would follow that. Our books, our classroom rules, all those things would follow.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2522512170&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, the podcast where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>As caregivers and educators, we’re likely used to interacting with schools in the day to day sense. It’s easy to forget that our experiences of school today are built on decades of history. And that’s what I’m here to talk to Dr. Bettina Love about. She’s a professor at Teachers College in Columbia University.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Her recently released book, \u003cem>Punished for Dreaming\u003c/em>, explores the disproportionate impact of education policies on Black students. If you’ve ever wondered why certain issues in education persist, Bettina might be able to give you some answers. My conversation with one of our favorite abolitionist educators, Bettina Love is up after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>I’m going to start at the top of your book. There’s a story that you share about Zook in \u003cem>Punished For Dreaming\u003c/em>. Can you tell me about how her experience shows the impact of educational policies on individual lives? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I thought it was important to really talk and use real people’s lives to talk about school reform. Zook is not only just a person in the book, but she’s one of my dearest, closest friends, and I was able to really understand how school policy impacts a person through Zook. And so Zook is a high school basketball star. She can do almost anything with a basketball. We are on our way to winning city and state. And then there’s this report or this allegation that Zook and some other male athletes are not going to class, they’re not attending class, and all our games are taken away. And then at the disciplinary hearing, Zook doesn’t have anybody there in her corner and she punches a teacher, but she doesn’t really punch a teacher for that particular incident. It’s all the incidents. It’s going through school for the last 13 years and not having one teacher tell her that she was bright, not having one teacher take any type of care, having a teacher in middle school body slam her to the ground and put her in a chokehold, 13 years of harm. And the book really opens with her story because it was a cautionary tale for me because I saw how you could be a superstar, you could score a lot of points, everybody could love you, but if you do something that people feel is so-called criminal, then you are punished for it in American schools. And she was really the impetus for this book. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love: \u003c/strong>And so the book really wants us to put education in the same conversation as crime reform and welfare reform and immigration reform, like all these reform policies that we know historically have been hurtful to people of color. We don’t think about education reform like that. So it’s really trying to use people’s stories to go through the last 40 years of education reform and tell the story about what happened to us as Black people through education. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Let’s take a look at Brown v Board of Education. I’m thinking about me as a kid in Walnut Creek, California, in public school, learning about Brown v Board. And I was taught that it was definitely a good thing with no downsides. Most people don’t know about the harm that it caused. Can you talk about how it shaped the trajectory of public education, specifically for Black students? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> It is probably one of the most consequential cases in the last 70, 80 years when it comes to education, that we don’t talk enough about. So it was really important in this book for me to talk about what we had before. Brown. Now, there is a glorious time in Black education before \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/brown-v-board-of-education\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brown versus Board of Education\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Not only were Black teachers teaching, they were highly credentialed, they were teaching students to their highest potential. Black teachers made up 30 to 50% of teachers in the segregated South. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> We had upwards to around \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">90,000 black educators teaching about 2 million Black children\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, with almost 89% of them being Black women. So Brown pretty much guts black education. And so then we see almost 38,000 Black educators fired. Black teachers are pretty much out of the profession through policy, through reform. And here we are, you know, 70 years after Brown and in the last \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">40 years, black teachers have not made up words of 10% of teachers\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Black male teachers are\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> less than 2% of teachers, and black women are anywhere from 6 to 8%.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All students benefit from teachers of color. And so it has been a disastrous loss not only for Black students, but really all students. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That’s really important because it’s not that Black teachers aren’t qualified. It’s not that they don’t want to teach. It’s that they were pushed out of teaching positions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Right. And I want to be very clear, it’s not that white teachers can’t teach Black students. That’s not what we’re arguing. What we’re arguing is that 88% of the teaching force can’t be white. You need diversity, you need diversity of thought, a diversity of ideas. You need to at least have through your 13 years of schooling someone who looks like you and talks like you and understands you and sees you. It’s important. Representation is important. Your culture is important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Moving forward in history. I want to discuss the Reagan presidency and what you call the war on Black children. Can you voice over some key policies and shifts during this time and also the repercussions those had in education? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Reagan was not very fond of the very ideas of public education. He was also not very fond of the government paying for public education. Reagan takes office 1982, he declares a war on drugs. 1983, Reagan releases another report. This probably is one of the most consequential education reports of our time, which is \u003cem>A Nation At Risk\u003c/em>.\u003cem> A Nation At Risk\u003c/em> says that this country, the United States of America, is failing behind most Western countries and that our education system is failing so badly that, you know, it could cause a war. This is just language of just fear mongering. By 1984, a year later, Reagan comes out with a report called\u003cem> Chaos in the Classroom\u003c/em>, which says these children are so rude and disorderly, We need police in schools. That’s 82, 83, 84. Just those few entry points, you start to see how education reform and crime reform begin to emerge. We start to see this language that is extremely punitive, not only in crime reform, but it becomes punitive and education reform. Reagan was really the linchpin, really the start, the spark, of us really merging education reform with crime reform. And every situation that I just talked about from the war on drugs,\u003cem> A Nation At Risk\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Chaos In The Classroom\u003c/em>, the data was always flawed. These reform efforts and these policies were not created with data that actually was factual. Much of the data was misleading. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> With such alarmist titles, too. I feel like that’s the first giveaway. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Chaos in the classroom! Like where? And, you know, and I think what people need to be clear about is that let’s say the data was correct. Okay? Let’s just say the data wasn’t misleading. Okay. If that’s what’s happening, the solution should not be: be punitive. The solution should have been, well, we need to hire more teachers. We need to pay teachers a living wage. We need to have smaller classrooms. Why is the solution “we need more police.” How has that got anything to do with the low test score that you’re talking about? Those things don’t go hand in hand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Given this historical context, I feel like at this point we’re sitting on a pile of punitive reform ideas. What does the educational landscape look like for Black students in particular, and what are some of the challenges Black students are facing because of these policies? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, I think many people would say, you know, the critical race theory bans the book bans. And those are serious things we have to be talking about. But I also want us to understand that in 2016, there was a report by Ed Bilder. And Ed Bilder came out and said that white schools in this country receive $23 billion more funding than nonwhite schools. We also know that students who need the most in this country get the least experienced teachers. 1 in 5 teachers, moonlight. Teachers around the country are deeply underpaid. We’ve seen teacher strikes all over the country last year, and I’m sure there’s going to be many more this year. Our schools have air pollutants in them that children can’t breathe. Our schools are talking about an achievement gap. We need babies in schools with clean air and clean water and credentialed teachers. We need schools where children can walk in and feel a sense of pride. And we also need schools where they can learn about themselves and the beauty of their history and who they are. Education, Right. Not right now. When you put all of that in context, it’s pretty dire. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> What I’m hearing in your answer is that a lot needs to happen on many different scales. What should we be looking at as far as – I mean, I’m scared to say policy reform at this point – but what should we be looking at on a national level? What needs to be done to address some of the issues that you outlined? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> A child in this country per pupil rate is like between 12 or $14,000. Like that’s what we get per pupil. Joe Biden is running and saying, listen, we need to increase Title one funding, per pupil funding by three times. So like making every child, particularly in low income schools, low income communities, you know, $30,000. Not only was that struck down, but it was struck down by the Democrats, too. Folks who say they are about justice and equity and equality are shooting down these type of policies. We got to be clear that there has been no party that essentially has been the party of education, has done some type of educational justice, liberation, thoughtful equality work. We actually need politicians who are going to actually fight for teachers, fight for parents, fight for students, understand inequality, understand historical inequalities, fight for funding, fight for resources. You cannot simply say that you’re going to hold education and teachers to these policies, to these laws, and then don’t have anything in the background to say how they’re going to support you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In your book, you make a case for reparations. Can you clarify what that means first for people who might be new to this concept and also what it might look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, I thought it was really important to try and write about something bold. So what I argue in this book is that if you look at the current education system just by generation, the last 40 years, harm has been done. The way Black students have been police and tested, expelled, funded, you have changed the trajectory of my life through education. Another word for reparations is repair. So how do you begin to repair this system? And the fullness of reparations is to end harm, is to atone for harm, is to start to think structurally how we say, “Hey, we did this. We know we did this. We’re apologizing because we did this. We’re compensating you because we did this. We’re going to end these policies that have done harm to you.” If you can’t see Black folks as beautiful and worthy, then reparations is hard for you. If you know who we are and you know our history and what we’ve done and what we continue to do and you see how this country has treated us even as we have kept creating and loving and inventing, then you will understand why reparations is important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Shifting the focus to educators and administrators. What actions can they take to make their classrooms more equitable and inclusive for black students? And I also want to acknowledge that I think it’s really hard to think about what to do at the teacher level when so much is happening at the policy level or so much isn’t happening at the policy level. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> I think the one thing teachers have to do on a very personal level is just take care of themselves. Drink your water, meditate, exercise. Do some yoga if you can. Find some time to really care about your wellbeing and yourself. Because we need teachers not only in the classroom. We need teachers well in the classroom. Right. Go to therapy, Indigenous practices, like we got to be well to show up for our kids when we know we are teaching in a system that is proliferating their destruction. So that is a really hard thing to show up every day, knowing that there are so many systems and structures and rules and policies and tests that are hurtful. Administrators have a lot of power too. So we need administrators to really understand what is necessary for a teacher and move that busy work to the side, so they can actually do what they need to do. But I would say the biggest thing that teachers and administrators can do tomorrow is remember that you have children in front of you. And what we see now is that seven year olds and five year olds and 15 year olds are treated, particularly if they’re Black and brown like adults. We got to remember that these are actual children. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I love that double pronged approach. It’s like, number one, if this meeting could be an email, make it an email. And number two, let kids be kids. My last question for you is what is your vision for the future of education in America? What do you hope to see in the years to come? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> What I would hope to see in the years to come is that the folks who say they are truly concerned about education, make the policies, make the laws would actually ask Gholdy Muhammad, Dena Simmons, Yolanda Sealy Ruiz, Gloria Ladson Billings, Cynthia Dillard, Adrian Dixon. Like, I would really like them to understand that there is a profound piece of knowledge – Linda Darling-Hammond – there’s a profound piece of knowledge – Pedro Negara. Like we can go on and on and on about these educational giants. There’s folks who have answers and solutions. Pick up our writings, ask us a question. We would like to be in these conversations. We got years of data, experience and knowledge. And so that’s what I would really want to see. I would want to see the folks who have invested their careers and their time and have done this work really be the ones who are asked, charged with doing the educational work, the folks in the communities and the parents and the aunties and the grandmas who have knowledge. I would love to see us actually ask a question. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Oh, I love that. I want whatever new policy that comes out to be: Please ask Goldie Muhammad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Ask Goldie Muhammad. Right. There are just people who we know are amazing black educators, scholars doing this work. So I would love for them to be able to create policy on a federal level. These folks know what they’re talking about, know what they’re doing. Never called. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I think MindShift’s audience is really going to appreciate the reading list you just gave them. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. I’m glad we had this opportunity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Bettina Love’s book is called Punished for Dreaming. MindShift will have more minisodes coming down the pipeline to bring you ideas and innovations from experts in education and beyond. Don’t forget to hit follow on your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss a thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If you like what you heard in this episode, I have recommendations for you. We did an episode with Micia Mosley about why every student deserves a black teacher. We’ve also done two episodes with Gholdy Muhammad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Bettina Love:\u003c/strong> Ask Goldie Muhammad!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The MindShift team includes me, Nimah Gobir, Ki Sung, Kara Newhouse and Marlena Jackson Retondo. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. We receive additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana and Holly Kernan. MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. Thank you for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/mindshift/62934/bettina-love-examines-the-impact-of-education-policies-on-black-students-and-what-we-can-do-next","authors":["11721"],"categories":["mindshift_21357","mindshift_21517","mindshift_21504","mindshift_21130","mindshift_21848"],"tags":["mindshift_21322","mindshift_21455","mindshift_21479","mindshift_20794","mindshift_20598","mindshift_35","mindshift_199","mindshift_381"],"featImg":"mindshift_62937","label":"mindshift"}},"programsReducer":{"possible":{"id":"possible","title":"Possible","info":"Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. 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